robilaruk Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 first hand of the game, so no reads, and not someone I remember playing before. Got to love my SB and I over raised on purpose, hoping to get a small PP limper heads up however I got 2 callers :( So I make a 2/3 pot bet on the flop and am raised ALL IN by the original min raiser - so has he AA or QQ, would he slowplay them pre-flop to my raise? has he hit trips? Should I call is shove? thoughts most welcome Damo :cheers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #338281348 at table: 5 Player $100 NL Started: Wed Jun 21 18:54:52 2006 Chrissi31 is at seat 1 with 2000.00 HERO is at seat 2 with 1985.00 DonaldTr is at seat 3 with 1970.00 GAMIAS is at seat 4 with 2000.00 BaldMonkey is at seat 5 with 2000.00 DonaldTr posts the large blind 30.00 HERO posts the small blind 15.00 HERO: Kh, Kd DonaldTr: --, -- GAMIAS: --, -- BaldMonkey: --, -- Chrissi31: --, -- Pre-flop: GAMIAS: Raise 60.00 BaldMonkey: Call 60.00 Chrissi31: Call 60.00 HERO: Raise 300.00 DonaldTr: Fold GAMIAS: Call 300.00 BaldMonkey: Fold Chrissi31: Call 300.00 Flop (Board: 8d, Qs, 4h): HERO: Bet 600.00 GAMIAS: All in chrissi31: folds Hero??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the croc Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? yes call for sure.he hasnt aa(easy for me to say)probably mid to high pp or ak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? 1 of the villains have AQ, maybe Pocket 8's. Regardless, the flop isn't scary enough for me to fold my KK. This is the move of someone who thinks by acting first then he has folding equity on you. Of course QQ, and 44 can't be dismissed, but this may be a $100 game, this isn't the WSoP. You call and if you've walked into trips, so be it. Let Phil Hellmuth or Sklansky fold these hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runadrum Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? If there isn't an A on the flop I cannot fold KK - good luck to them if I am beaten by the flop (but wait for my language if it takes the river to beat me !). Even if there is an A on the flop I'm probably still calling unless the buy-in is all the money I have in the world ! Hard to think of a flop that would make me fold - anything paired and I just think there is less chance of one of the other two being held by someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? You're getting approx 3-1 on your call the odds of somebody hitting tips is approx 7-1. Percentage wise these are the calls you have to make for long term success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? you sure? if he has trips I am a 7-1 dog and am getting 4-1 to call for all my chips making calls on the flop like this is BAD for long term value if he has trips, and ones that lead to ruin not success I understand your general pointthough - he is 7-1 to hit trips on the flop if he has a PP - and that is the reason for my question - has he hit them? do I fold my hand and keep 1100 chips with the blinds at 15/30 Damo :cheers You're getting approx 3-1 on your call the odds of somebody hitting tips is approx 7-1. Percentage wise these are the calls you have to make for long term success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the croc Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? this is pre flop or after the flop? at first i presumed it was pre flop.if its after the flop and an ace is on board i would fold if kk was all i had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the croc Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? just seen the flop cards(gonna have to learn to read)yes he has hit trips with his 44 i reckon,hard one to fold but in a 100 dollar game i think u should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazabroad Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? I´m not as experienced as some of you guys, but can hold my own at times. Think I would probably play safe and live to carry on. BTW its over an hour now.....WHAT HAPPENED? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? you'll find out after a few more responses need to gauge how people think it is best to play premium PP to a shove all in ta Damo I´m not as experienced as some of you guys, but can hold my own at times. Think I would probably play safe and live to carry on. BTW its over an hour now.....WHAT HAPPENED? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonjon Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? all in, no thinking required.:D actually my whole game involves the no thinking required rule.:loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? why no thinking? what hand do you put the villian on? he min raised UTG and called a re-raise for another 240 chips, what does that say about his hand PF? he then reraises a 2/3 pot bet on the flop would be interested to know what people think the villian has Damo all in, no thinking required.:D actually my whole game involves the no thinking required rule.:loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? Does Chrissi31 fold? The call they made would influence my decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? GREAT point yes chrissi folds Damo Does Chrissi31 fold? The call they made would influence my decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? For a start I'm not up to the level where I'd risk $100 on a game of poker, however there are only 5 possible better hands than yours (AA, QQ, 88, 44 & 2 pair). In a game of poker, post flop that's a pretty small number compared to the number of possible hands GAMIAS could have. I think I'd have to take the risk and call (doubling up first hand in a 5 person game gives you a great advantage also). I'd probably put him on top pair with a decent kicker in which case you have to call. If he had AA and was inclined to go all in easily he'd have done it pre flop. Trips are the main concern and not much you can do against them. Two pairs give you a lot more outs than trips, so would not be the worst call in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerBarney Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? The minimum raise implies a nice hand, but not that great. A large pair would re-raise your re-raise, since it's obvious that you've got a hand, or could be stealing. His flat call either implies inexperience (calling with a mediocre hand) or slow play. He chooses to re-raise all in on the flop, whereas AA or KK would flat call if he's slowplaying. If we're assuming he is inexperienced and calling with a mediocre hand, his inexperience would show through again with the all in (since he thinks his top pair is good) - so I'd give him AQ, which means you call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonjon Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? I wasnt really reading the post (:lol) all i saw was u had KK so i would go all in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted June 21, 2006 Author Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? cheers pegasus for the insightful post - the level of the buy-in is irrelevant, its about making the correct plays at any level that is important there are 42 possible combinations of trips or 2 pairs hands and gawd knows how many other hands the 2 pr option never occured to me (q8 suited I guess.....) so it was AA QQ 88 or 44 I was concerned with interesting that you should mention the 2 pr..... ;) Damo For a start I'm not up to the level where I'd risk $100 on a game of poker, however there are only 5 possible better hands than yours (AA, QQ, 88, 44 & 2 pair). In a game of poker, post flop that's a pretty small number compared to the number of possible hands GAMIAS could have. I think I'd have to take the risk and call (doubling up first hand in a 5 person game gives you a great advantage also). I'd probably put him on top pair with a decent kicker in which case you have to call. If he had AA and was inclined to go all in easily he'd have done it pre flop. Trips are the main concern and not much you can do against them. Two pairs give you a lot more outs than trips, so would not be the worst call in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmal76 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? im guessing he has AQ so its all in for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? I really hope you called so we find out what he had. Otherwise we'll hunt you down...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socky1 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? Why Intresting he mentions the Two pair I wonder, surley he would never have called your pre flop raise with Q 8. I'm guessing he hits another pair on the turn or river. Id say he has A Q and hits an Ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socky1 Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? Or has he the other KK that would be mad! Thats my guess he has KK also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runadrum Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? With the amount of time we have now had to discuss and analyse this I would still put him on AQ too. That makes the most sense of the call and then the all-in. He has hit top pair but is yours for the taking ........ With the clock ticking away at the time my decision is going to be gut feeling not carefully considered analysis and I'm back to not being able to fold KK unless (and I am now looking at the thread from Mr V when his AA was up against KK and JJ) the flop is something like A J J. Reading between the lines I'm now guessing he has Q8 suited and has more money than sense ! :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? I think he was playing 57s and hit the straight on the river - a man after my own heart!! Would have to be all-in for me (is anyone REALLY surprised?!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philossify Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? Heres my two penneth worth ..... AQ by all in would fit the betting as would 88 and (possibly) 44 (though 44 is a possible fold in the light of your raise - 44 is a valid raise b4 flop in a 5 player game) - wouldn't have thought he had AA or KK as I would have expected a reraise b4 the flop. Would not suspect him of having AKo or AKs as going all in with these is mad. QQ is a possibility although with the initial rasie to 60 and no reraise of your rasie before the flop then I think its not QQ. But of course he could be a rich muppet and even have AA or Q8 or Q4 or somesuch. If you ignore the fact that its a $100 game (which I think you have to do) then I think you gotta call - my gut feel is that its 60-40 you are ahead with him having AQ. The gut call would be easier if you have been playing a series of these games and are a few hundred in front. It would be much easier decision with more info on the other player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilberto Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? You didn't call this???? You crazy man! :spank I agree with Runadrum. I would put him on AQ, possibly KQ. Which ever way it was ... bad fold. The only thing to be scared of is trips and if he has hit them good luck to the guy!! It was a dream flop for either KK or AA, and if it was AA against your KK with that flop, it should have always anded in 2 all-ins?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? Think I'd lay this in a $100 game, AA or a set is all I can really put him on here, the min raise isn't consistent with AQ, KQx. Pre-flop the minimum raise looks like he's slow playing aces or value raising looking for his set. He could feasibly have suited connectors with a Q - JQ or KQ, and be value raising that too, though if so he should know he's behind by the time he shoves. So it's marginal with what you stand to win, but if I called this I wouldn't have a warm fuzzy feeling about it. Will disagree that level of buy-in isn't important here tho. The play's different so the right play changes. Wanna know what he had! :D Edit: Or KK too, good point socky, just saw that post - fits the betting but I wouldn't make any decisions based on the possibility! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tax_Monkey Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? My thoughts: Got to agree with Guess as far as the buy in level is concerned. You have no other info on the rest of the table so because of the buy-in you have to assume these guys know what they're doing. I can't put him on 2 pair as that would have been a stupid call by him pre flop, I'm also dismissing trip 4s for the same reason (although it's not as bad as calling with Q8) I still don't think it's a sensible one. Calling with 88 is a bit harder to dismiss so I think trip 8s is a possibility. If he had AA then that would tie in with the small raise but I would've expected him to re-raise you all in pre flop. The initial small raise doesn't make sense if he's holding QQ because it's not going to chase anyone with Ax and a A on the flop would be scary for him. AQ is a possibility although again the min raise doesn't make much sense. If it was me I would have called, because you don't have time to think of all the possibilities and the odds are you're way ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? thanks all for the excellent replies, as always I try to view the betting through the eyes of the villian so quick re-cap 1st hand of a tourney, you know if you raise 4Xbb you will get 3 callers (even at the $109 level) which builds a pot worth fighting over, but villian UTG min raises, so plausible hands are: a monster AA KK and maybe QQ, he is hoping to pot build and get some action because he thinks he is being clever - this is my opinion is bloody stupid, as you will probably see all 5 of us in after the 1st person calls as the pot odds are great to hit a hand and out drew the min raiser - just don't do it, make a standard 3-5 BB raise and get only 1 or 2 callers.....:eyes a low PP 88-22, probably the best hand at the minute (PF), but susceptible to over cards, again the min raise builds a pot and if you hit your set you are likely to get paid off - again its a shite way to play IMO, as the BB calls for another 30 with J4 and a flop of J 2 5 is ahead of villians 66 - I would limp UTG with this kind of hand early doors as the blinds are not worth winning with a raise Ax hands more tricky, I would expect to see either A K/Q/J do this or any Ax suited, again its pot building, hoping to hit the flop hard any 2 connectors, suited or not 98 or above, playing for str/2pr/flush flops So villian min raises, and as per usual the the CO and button call, so I overraise to 300 and get 2 callers! so one of them has at least a PP or Ax (K-10 I would say) A fairly good flop for me and with so much cash in the middle (remember pot building?? LOL) I bet 2/3 pot, and face a shove by the villian and a fold. I still have 1100 chips and can fold, as the blinds are 15/30 so has he AQ KQ 88 or 44 - these are the hands I put him on at this point - I can't believe he would slowplay AA after my over raise PF, and I think he would have shoved KK PF as well hoping I had AK AQ QQ JJ 1010 etc, to stop me outdrawing him/making it expensive to call whilst ahead - he might not shove QQ PF because of me potentially having AA KK AK AQ and smooth called hoping to see no A or K on the flop and then deciding where he is. Note I don't put him on QQ after his flop shove - would you shove trips in this situation?, I wouldn't, I would call and hope to get some money in on the turn, because if u shove and oppo doesn't have AA KK or AQ he is letting this go, and I can't see someone raising to 300 with 88 or 44 after a min raise and 2 limps, these middle pairs are great to call with at this point for value but not to re-raise with, they are too vulnerable to a re-raise shove PF and then what do you do?. So I again i can't see him thinking I had 88 or 44 and would obviously call his trips. having thought about it for vitually the full time I narrowed it down to AQ or 88, and as pointed out earlier he is 7-1 to hit his set, so i called....... and he flipped over an 8 :eyes nice I thought, very nice.......:unsure gonna get kippered here, coz his 5 is bound to hit turn or river:puke yeah thats right he is risking his buy-in with 85 suited, yes 85 SOOOOOOOOOOOOTED :wall he has no flush draw, only middle pair with no kicker :sad well I dodged another 8 or 5 and won the pot:dude Chrissi said "WTF?" I responded "I am assuming he puts me on AK", and chrissi said I "folded a middle pair" so sometimes it's not worth thinking too much and just call, its more fun that way....... :ok Damo :cheers ps full hand history below *************************************** Hand #338281348 at table: 5 Player $100 NL Started: Wed Jun 21 18:54:52 2006 Chrissi31 is at seat 1 with 2000.00 HERO is at seat 2 with 1985.00 DonaldTr is at seat 3 with 1970.00 GAMIAS is at seat 4 with 2000.00 BaldMonkey is at seat 5 with 2000.00 DonaldTr posts the large blind 30.00 HERO posts the small blind 15.00 HERO: Kh, Kd DonaldTr: --, -- GAMIAS: --, -- BaldMonkey: --, -- Chrissi31: --, -- Pre-flop: GAMIAS: Raise 60.00 BaldMonkey: Call 60.00 Chrissi31: Call 60.00 HERO: Raise 300.00 DonaldTr: Fold GAMIAS: Call 300.00 BaldMonkey: Fold Chrissi31: Call 300.00 Flop (Board: 8d, Qs, 4h): HERO: Bet 600.00 GAMIAS: All in Chrissi31: Fold HERO: All in Showdown: HERO shows: Kh, Kd (a pair of Kings) GAMIAS shows: 8c, 5c (a pair of Eights) Turn (Board: 8d, Qs, 4h, 2s): River (Board: 8d, Qs, 4h, 2s, 7s): Mainpot: HERO wins the pot of 4390 with a pair of Kings (0.00 rake were taken for this hand) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 Re: Have reraised with KK, do I call his shove? Hi TM thats why its a great idea to post these hands/situations here, to discuss with a clear head and with time to reflect on what people might have. That way it be becomes easier to make the decision in only 15 secs during the game Damo :cheers My thoughts: If it was me I would have called, because you don't have time to think of all the possibilities and the odds are you're way ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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