My Play with JACKS

[mrmuzeman]

Advice here please. I find Jacks quite troublesome as I know do many others. I went out holding them tonight on a 10 seater STT, want to know if I played them ok or not.... Ok blinds at 50 / 100. 6 players left. I have 1000 in chips. First to act player raises 100. 2 fold to me. I think here I simply cannot fold (for obvious reasons). If I just call I fear an overcard on the flop (is it about 50/50 for an overcard here? pls sum1 who knows tell me). If I raise then im left with not many chips although i guess I could spike a Jack. Or I can go all in which is what I did. I figured theres quite a few poor players in general at Ladbrokes so many just raise with raggy aces and raggy kings etc. I think theres a chance (although probably not) I am against a smaller pair. I dont think he would have QQ, KK or AA but its a possibility, although Im prepared to take the chance (should I be?). What I figure he has is an ace with probably a queen or king but a fair chance it could be just a raggy ace. He calls my 800 all in raise with A7o. Crap call in my opinion but there you go. The flop came with both an Ace and a 7 and im out. (was I about a 75% fave here? Again im not sure of spot on maths). My question is, did I play the Jacks well? Should I have committed myself to going out here? Ive gone out with JJ a few times now and its beginning to annoy me see :lol Perhaps I should just call and play them tentatively as though they were 88 or something? Cheers :)

[aliensyndm]

Re: My Play with JACKS No comment.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: My Play with JACKS Come one Alien mate, dont be like that :loon Im asking for advice....

[Jezza]

Re: My Play with JACKS Will reply tomorrow mate...away to my bed now totally knackered

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: My Play with JACKS It all depends on who I'm playing, if it's a cash game or a tournement and my position on the table. Firstly I would rarely fold JJ pre flop unless a player I really rated came in with a monster raise. Normally I would raise with JJ as in most instances I will be ahead of anyone else. This should get people out who hold A + Rag (which it didn't in your case). If someone calls with AK or AQ or AJ then you are still favourite to win the pot. Here are some odds JJ vs AKo = JJ is 56.65% favourite. JJ vs AKs = JJ is 53.68% favourite. JJ vs AQo = JJ is 57.17% favourite. JJ vs AQs = JJ is 53.77% favourite. If more than one player calls with Aces then your odds improve even further as they have reduced their chances by each holding an Ace. The nightmare callers are JJ vs AA = AA is 80.31% favourite. JJ vs KK = KK is 80.68% favourite. JJ vs QQ = QQ is 81.10% favourite. These are the cards I would be worrying about if a very strong player raised all in. Only in these circumstances would I fold.... and that comes down to how good your intuition is.... It all depends on your approach to poker. I believe that successful betting is about spotting value. As I know I'm going to be ahead against the vast majority of callers I would often raise as more often than not I will win the pot. This equates to a 'value' bet in my mind. I tend to be quite successful in MTT's (unless it is the PL game where I'm cursed :( ). One of the reasons why I believe I'm quite good in such tournements is that I don't try and hang around just to scrape into the money. If I believe I'm ahead at any point in a hand I am quite aggressive - if someone has the cajones to try and outdraw me then so be it. I'm favourite - so lets play cards! Some people might just flat call the BB with JJ and see what the flop brings. I tend to see this as giving the A/K/Q + Rag players three free cards. I want to bust these guys out pre flop if I can with JJ. Some players are so very, very tight. I think this is ok in order to grind out a living in cash games but in MTT's or STT's I think you need to loosen up a bit or the increasing blinds will eat you alive. Hope this helps. :ok

[CJ Mars]

Re: My Play with JACKS For what it's worth I usually play pocket Jacks aggressively with a raise from late position. From early-mid position I'd call and try to limp in cheaply. I would be reluctant to go all in as like in your case someone with an ace (even with a rag kicker) is likely to call. I'd usually make a raise of at least two / three times the current pot from late position if the pot was unraised. If its raised back to me I'd call. In a raised pot I'd call from late position and hope the flop is not too scary. If the flop comes without an ace I'd probably put 1 player all in (but not more). If after my initial raise pre flop I was in turn put all in I'd have to think about matching it depending on how much I knew about the raiser and how tight / loose they were. I'd play queens pretty much the same way btw.

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: My Play with JACKS Nice post CJ. I play Queens similar to the way I play Jacks too. The only difference between me and you is that I still would put in a raise even from early position. However the later the position - the bigger the raise - the earlier the position - the smaller the raise. What's interesting is when everyone folds but you get reraised by one player in late position. Sometimes I consider a reraise here if I think the opponent has a drawing hand or is playing his cards stronger than normal as he is in late against only a small raiser.

[staffy]

Re: My Play with JACKS This post has got me thinking really. I dont really have a set way of playing. If i was dealt jacks one day i might play them differently the next. Perhaps that is where I am going wrong. I need to start taking into account where the button is. Who I am playing against. thats probably why I am not as good with internet poker than I am with live poker. I am very good at reading peoples bluffs which I cant do on t'internet i guess. I still make ok money playing live games though perhaps if i improve my overall play I will be a champ at one of the WSOp events one day. (sorry was dreaming then).

[Jezza]

Re: My Play with JACKS JJ is the other big NL hold em trouble hand after AK. The problem is this, if you raise preflop you will likely see an overcard fall and against multiple opponents you MUST check here as it is going to be a card in the playing zone (an A is the worst to see on net poker - someone ALWAYS has one!!) and its highly likely someone holds it. If it is checked around then you can make your own decision as to if your jacks or good or if someone is slowplaying. Against one opponent I would probably bet again regardless of an overcard falling after raising (unless it was something ridiculous like a flop of AKQ) hoping to pick it up there, and if they called I would give the pot up. Another, less commonly noticed but even more dangerous IMO, trap with JJ is the baby flop. (The plays I am talking here is my thinking in cash games btw)Yes you have an overpair and yes it looks SO VERY good in your hand but believe me if you get a lot of action you are probably beaten. The problem stems from the fact a board to which JJ is an overpair will probably have a lot of connecting cards on the flop like : 6710 or 892 or even 456. A lot of people (myself included) love to play suited connectors etc and if this is the case then chances are someone has two pair! (if not a str8 or at least a str8 draw). If there is no draw there and you are getting a lot of action then I would say you have to lay JJ down, (with overcards on the board this is easy to do at only a small loss but holding an overpair time and time again many players will lose everything infront of them which is why IMO this is a more dangerous board). Of course sometimes your jacks will be good but you have to develop a feel for when this is the case (and it helps big style to know who will push A10 hard on a 1089 board and who wont out of your opponents). What I would say to do here is if you get the baby flop then stick in a good pot sized bet at it - if someone chooses to stay with you or even raises you then think very carefully about what they have. I like to limp with JJ in cash games and try and flop a set, which will be an extremely powerful hand (and noone any the wiser you have it). If you raise with JJ in a cash game then this is an ok play however the problem is you will win a lot of small pots and lose a large one occasionly if you are not good at being able to let go of pretty looking hands. I like to limp with JJ in cash games as the opposite happens. I dont win as many small pots but I win a lot more of the huge ones as when it comes to set over set or house over house etc you will almost always have the winner with JJ and they wont put you on it. In tournaments like you were playing MrM my play is totally different. At the start when the blinds are small then I would play them cute like in a cash game, not wanting to commit too much of my stack unless I was sure I had the best hand but as the blinds get bigger and bigger I will play it harder and harder preflop. In the situation you were in you had 10 big blinds left in your stack. Basically at this point you have a monster hand in JJ and I would have reraised all in as well. When you are faced with one overcard against a pocket pair preflop the odds are around about 70% for the PP and 30% for the one overcard winning. The guy who called your reraise all in with A7o is of course loose and wild and not thinking straight but thats ok as its what you want really at those stakes and you took a good advantage over him (even tho in reality you will lose approx 1 in 3 times you play this hand like that you did the best move IMO - in the long run you will have the chips playing like this). Your reasoning behind reraising him was good as well and this is how you should think all the time when playing poker. Of course even when the blinds are large JJ can be vulnerable and if a VERY VERY TIGHT player raised you can consider mucking them (but your read would have to be pretty good to do this). Also a raise followed a reraise is an almost certain sign of a better hand (apart from maybe when the blinds are a third of your stack or something ridiculous) and you can muck them safely there as well. My advice in general for tourney play with JJ would be look at the size of the big blind in relation to your stack, you want to be reraising and moving all in preflop more with jacks when the blinds are higher and when they are lower maybe take a flop with them/flat call a raiser and decide from there what to do (you are far more likely to be good with a baby flop after doing that than in a cash game against multiple limpers). Jez

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: My Play with JACKS

Perhaps that is where I am going wrong. I need to start taking into account where the button is.

Staffy - this is absolutely vital in all forms of poker (online or live). People play a lot differently all depending on their position. For example I would toss 34o in early or mid position - however I might call if I am in last position as I know I will be able to see the flop cheaply without the possibility of a raise coming in afterwards. If a flop comes which is no good to me but it is checked all the way round (by players I consider to be tight and weak) I will sometimes throw in a raise in late position in order to nick the pot. If I'm called I get to see another card - if I'm reraised I'm out pretty cheaply still. The art is understanding when you are against tight and weak opposition. But again this illustrates how position has altered the way I have played the same hand. Lastly it helps to understand how people might be altering their play against you. There are still many 'tells' online - the easiest to spot are the position raisers. I love waiting for these guys when I have a good hand to reraise with. :D

[Jezza]

Re: My Play with JACKS Staffy you are correct to think like this and imo you HAVE to to be a good poker player. What I am talking about is the line you wrote "I dont have a set way of playing JJ". This is absolutely correct and should be followed by everyone. You have to judge each situation as it comes in poker, anyone trying to come up with a "formula" will come up short against the best players time and time again. This is why a computer program will never beat a world champion at poker over the long run, but can beat a world champion at chess. My post is just trying to describe the thought processes I go through when Im playing jacks and give you some pointers as to how to make some good decisions. However for every play you make in poker (and not just with JJ) you must take into account the situation you are in and the players you are against - dont follow a formula. Jez

[staffy]

Re: My Play with JACKS TBH my play has improved since joining PL and reading and contributing to the threads. I love the game and its highly addictive. Like i have said before the money is not a major issue to me although ill take it if it arrives but i love winning. I'm sure my play will improve as i play more. On that note back to Inter.

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: My Play with JACKS Jez, Interesting how you mention that the other problem hand to start with is AK. I find myself calling with this hand more often than raising with it preflop nowadays.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: My Play with JACKS Cheers for all the info guys, very good read :) Incidentally I just made exactly the same play with QQ (almost to the letter in every way, similar stacks etc and everything) that I did before with the JJ, got called by AK and got knocked out again! :lol Cant win an all in to save my life at the mo! Ive gone out the last 4 times Ive gone all in when ive been 70%, 93%, 70% and 55% (roughly) favourite! Anyway I digress... I'll be back in the future with more hands to analyse im sure because the feedback I get is quite invaluable :ok

[cains]

Re: My Play with JACKS Mrmuze.. Dont be sad.. I also loose with JJ.. The other day i did it again. 4 left on single table. 200$ for 3.place. 300 for 2.place and 500$ for 1.place. im 3 in chips. with the 4.place just behind me in chips. And he sits in front of me. So blinds will eat him before me, if no play. BB=400 i had 1300.. I get JJ.. And go all in.. Couse dont want to throw a good hand away. Rather try to steal the blind, or and jerk to call me with crap hand.. I get called by chip leader. He shows 99.. And i cheers.. Flop is 7,8,9 :@ Still small chance for me to get a straight.. But just knew ive lost it all there.. And thats not the first time those J, kills me... But i just cant fold them, in that spot, where i know that if everyone folds, to the man in 4.place, he will be ahead, and i most likely will get 72o for the rest of my game.. / cains