fintron Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Agree Trotter, they make such a drama out of everything in the US. I Cringe whenever I watch their ATR coverage, can only stand a few mins and have to turn off! All of the crowd were going "woahhhhhhhh" whenever Quality Road was bucking there. That horse was mental, looked like he had roid rage lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Agree Trotter, they make such a drama out of everything in the US. I Cringe whenever I watch their ATR coverage, can only stand a few mins and have to turn off! All of the crowd were going "woahhhhhhhh" whenever Quality Road was bucking there. That horse was mental, looked like he had roid rage lol Probably did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris34 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November wow that is some filly!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Fair play. Zenyatta is a creditable champion. History made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November the filly wins..........I'm shocked. brilliant ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Nicely done indeed. I cant stand to watch the replay back though. The hysterical Yanks in the background are too much to bear :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November :puke:puke One of my 2 selections scratched :( The remaining 0.4pts E/W from earlier now on Gio Ponti @ SP. So, 0.6pts E/W @ 14/1 Bet365 BOG as stated earlier and 0.4pts E/W @ SP The Super Filly denies me :sad Great performance though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November An appalling price but a wonderful winner. Zenyatta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I wonder if STS would have beaten that....? I think not tbh.... Discuss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November An appalling price but a wonderful winner. Zenyatta. I dont think you can say she was an appalling price after that. I think after that, you have to admit your judgement was wrong as she won that like a 6/4 shot !! She came 9 wide !!! A stunning stunning performance !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris34 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November oooo Alex what a can of worms you have opened, im not sure she showed something a little special tonight and probably would have been tough on this surface, how would STS take to the surface and vice versa??! Twice over ran a cracker of a race back in 3rd aswell, rip van was ****** coming round the bend huge flop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I dont think you can say she was an appalling price after that. I think after that, you have to admit your judgement was wrong as she won that like a 6/4 shot !! She came 9 wide !!! A stunning stunning performance !! :clap:clap:clap:clap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris34 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Right boys im off to bed, a big thanx to everyone who has contributed to this thread been a cracking 2 nights of racing and long may our sport continue with champions like the ones we have seen! And big thanks to Stewart for that link unfortunately i only have freeview so greatly apreciated ;)!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November SP was 14/1 for Gio Ponti so, I had 1pt E/W with a 10p rule 4. So returned 4.05pts taking into account the rule 4, so can't really complain. Particularly with the horse that beat him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November The race has imo got to be rated around Twice Over. (Well done "Old Henry" and Young Queally)/ On form it is not a "great" performance. But she can only beat the horses she runs against. And may be better than her "form" performance. Extra credit for coming from the back in a race not run at a fast pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Chapman has just hit the nail on the head there. Is a 2 length victory over Twice Over equal to a 'great' victory....? And if STS had turned up, what would have happened???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intersky Falcon Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Don't think it matters Alex. Zenyatta had never faced the class of what she faced tonight and still pissed it. Like they said earlier, she's like STS in the fact that she does just enough. She'd do it in any company IMO. Woulda been a cracker to see STS there too, but then I doubt they'd have put Zenyatta in the race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Chapman has just hit the nail on the head there. Is a 2 length victory over Twice Over equal to a 'great' victory....? And if STS had turned up, what would have happened???? Yes, its a great victory. Lets not forget this horse is a filly, and she covered enough ground that would make brilliant horses lose races. So lets not even go down the route of it not being a great victory. HOWEVER, I dont think anyone can say for sure that she would have/wouldnt have beaten Sea the Stars and its a huge pity STS didnt turn up. :\ I cant think of any UK horses bar Sea the Stars that would have beaten Zenyatta today though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I dont think you can say she was an appalling price after that. I think after that, you have to admit your judgement was wrong as she won that like a 6/4 shot !! She came 9 wide !!! A stunning stunning performance !! You can only judge a price on form before the race Stewart. On form (prior to the race) she was a false price. Most judges of form would tell you that. O.K. she won. But if you look at my post, I did still make her second favourite. If RVW does not run anywhere near his form then Zenyatta has the best chance of winning. What about a dice throw. If I offer odds of 2/1 about you throwing a six. And 10/1 you throwing any other given number. You back the six at 2/1 and it wins. Were you right to back the six? Was the 2/1 a good price Stewart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Interesting question Alex. Does Twice Over finishing third devalue the form? He was running against sub standing Group horses at the start of the season...Fanjura, Chock A Block etc, not genuine G1 types that STS was repeatedly beating. Or has Twice Over improved so much so this season, winning the Champion Stakes, that he is now a genuine Group 1 horse which he could never have been called before? I don't think Rip Van Winkle can be used as a yardstick now as he has simply been exhausted after a long season in my eyes, which was what made the 2/1 too short to touch despite his high rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Straight after the race, I thought 'WOW'. HOWEVER, now I think about things... Twice over is nothing special, lets be honest. He was racing in CLASS 2 races 3 races ago and was certainly not fancied to win the Champion Stakes LTO. I reckon STS would have beaten Zenyatta today. It is a massive shame that they will never meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November You can only judge a price on form before the race Stewart. On form (prior to the race) she was a false price. Most judges of form would tell you that. O.K. she won. But if you look at my post, I did still make her second favourite. If RVW does not run anywhere near his form then Zenyatta has the best chance of winning. What about a dice throw. If I offer odds of 2/1 about you throwing a six. And 10/1 you throwing any other given number. You back the six at 2/1 and it wins. Were you right to back the six? Was the 2/1 a good price Stewart. Dont give me the dice throw example. You dont need to explain mechanical value to me. Most judges of form - That surely depends on what judges of form. She could only beat what she had raced against, and if you look at the speed figs she was recording, she was entitled to be short tonight. It just frustrates me that straight after the race, you have to say the price was stilll wrong, and there's obviously no question of your opinion on the form of Zenyatta being wrong. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I cannot believe they have taken horses out of the stalls. That would NEVER EVER happen in the UK... Unfortunately they don't Alex. If they leave them in the stalls (like here) the ones in there longest / nearest the problem are often slow away. By taking them all out it makes it fair for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Straight after the race, I thought 'WOW'. HOWEVER, now I think about things... Twice over is nothing special, lets be honest. He was racing in CLASS 2 races 3 races ago and was certainly not fancied to win the Champion Stakes LTO. I reckon STS would have beaten Zenyatta today. It is a massive shame that they will never meet. I really really really wish we could have found out. Using Twice Over as a yardstick is fair in the context of the race, but I genuinely cant think of any European horses that would have beaten Zenyatta tonight, barring one obviously ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I don't know either mate. STS would clearly have given her a race.... Call me mad, but how would you place CONDUIT against Zenyatta.... Probably a theoretical question, but thats exactly what it is. Both come late etc etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I don't know either mate. STS would clearly have given her a race.... Call me mad, but how would you place CONDUIT against Zenyatta.... Probably a theoretical question, but thats exactly what it is. Both come late etc etc.... A mad question - no way. IMO, Conduit is under-rated, and would have been right up there tonight, and given the fact Zenyatta had a horrid trip, it would have been close. But theoretically, if Zenyatta had got a run 2 or 3 wide, she would have won by 6 lengths IMO, so on that basis, I dont think Conduit is better than Zenyatta. Close, but not better. Would have pushed her close if Conduit had got through 2 or 3 wide tonight though. In my opinion, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Dont give me the dice throw example. You dont need to explain mechanical value to me. Most judges of form - That surely depends on what judges of form. She could only beat what she had raced against, and if you look at the speed figs she was recording, she was entitled to be short tonight. It just frustrates me that straight after the race, you have to say the price was stilll wrong, and there's obviously no question of your opinion on the form of Zenyatta being wrong. ;) If you don't want me to quote mechanical value Stewart, then don't make such statements that don't add up. Of course something can be appalling value and still win. She has probably improved a bit to win and it was as I said, a "wonderful" performance. May be I should have said "most good form (value) judges". I don't think I was wrong in this case Stewart, but not saying I am always right. I don't mind you thinking I was wrong. It is all about opinion.:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I really really really wish we could have found out. Using Twice Over as a yardstick is fair in the context of the race' date=' but I genuinely cant think of any European horses that would have beaten Zenyatta tonight, barring one obviously ;)[/quote'] Rip Van Winkle, at his best?;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November Yes, its a great victory. Lets not forget this horse is a filly, and she covered enough ground that would make brilliant horses lose races. So lets not even go down the route of it not being a great victory. HOWEVER, I dont think anyone can say for sure that she would have/wouldnt have beaten Sea the Stars and its a huge pity STS didnt turn up. :\ I cant think of any UK horses bar Sea the Stars that would have beaten Zenyatta today though. Ummmm, Nobody can say for SURE Stewart, but if they both ran to their best.... STS is rated around 140 by Timeform. Twice Over was (prior to today) I think around 125. Given the same price, know who I'd be on.:eek Intersky Falcon made a good point though. With horses that only do just enough / come from the back; it is difficult to say for certain how much they have up their fore leg.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Re: THE BREEDERS CUP - Fri 6th & Sat 7th November I dont think you can say she was an appalling price after that. I think after that, you have to admit your judgement was wrong as she won that like a 6/4 shot !! She came 9 wide !!! A stunning stunning performance !! When I was placing my bet this afternoon I saw RVW 2/1 and Zenyatta 4/1 :eek:eek With all the problems with RVW's prep and his hard season this was clearly wrong. Dunno what price the winner went off, but 4/1 was huge! I wonder if STS would have beaten that....? I think not tbh.... Discuss! Well.. this is why I hate the flat. Will Kauto Star miss the Gold Cup just to be expensive as stud? No of course. Why not run STS here and see if he can beat Zanyatta. Then retire him. It's bloody annoying all this. I just hate the flat and always will. May learn to bet on it in the future, but as racing and the horses involved I'll always despise it. I want to see Zenyatta, New Approach, Sea The Stars in the same race. Not one retired, the other one not coming here and retiring after Arc and the third one winning it. Put the three in one race and see who's best. Now this will be worth watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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