luckyblogger Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars My first big win in horse racing was sea the stars in 2000 guineas. 100 at 12/1... i was impressed and from them have backed him at every race he has ran in.. unfortunately i got swayed by the negative feedback on the Arc and worried due to the field size so only decided to bet small and enjoy the race... how wrong i was.. a truly magnificient and calm horse.. i thought it had no chance 2f out but then suddenly it quickened and everyone else was left behind... I am new to horse racing and i have not see the Sea Birds and Dancing Braves.. For me, Sea The Stars the greatest i have seen till now :notworthy:notworthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereoman Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Today's Bettingzone Market News: 0840: Sea The Stars may be the greatest horse of the 21st century but bookmakers William Hill have opened a book on where the sensation will sit against history's greatest racehorses. Sea-Bird II holds the benchmark as the highest-rated horse since Timeform ratings began with a mark of 145, and Hills make it an 10/1 chance that the son of Urban Sea reaches the same turf mark in the Timeform annual of 2009, and 14/1 that he breaks new ground by becoming the highest rated horse in the history of the ratings system. Kate Miller, spokeswoman for William Hill, explained: "Racing fans all over the world will now devote hours to the topic of how good Sea the Stars truly is. "A Timeform rating helps to define greatness, and although he may not reach a mark like 145, we are certain he will be confirmed as a legend of the turf and take his place in history." Hills make a rating of 143 their favourite for the six-time Group One winner, pitching him 1lb higher than the likes of Ribot, and Windy City who both achieved 142 in their careers. Dancing Brave may rate as one of the Arc's most famous victors, but Hills are certain that Sea the Stars will be rated higher than the 1986 winner, offering 8/1 that he climbs no further up the table of ratings from his current mark of 140. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars I've been looking about different forums etc... just to gauge an overall opinion of what punters truly think of STS. Generally it's been all positive and ranking him up there with Sea Bird, Dancing Brave, Brigadier Gerard etc..... However, there are some who are generally never satisfied. One poster elsewhere, said this after the Guineas win. good run, not a Derby winning horse though, LAY LAY LAY After the Derby win. Race run to suit him, needs to improve to win another Group 1 After the Irish Champion Needs to win an Arc to be ranked as a great horse. Still only a good horse that has beaten horses who have run below their best every time After the Arc Ok, he won but he didn't beat Youmzain as comfortabely as Zarkava did. Can't even put him in the same league as Zarkava on that basis and therefore he can't be anywhere near the greats. Still has to prove himself against the best when the best are on form Some folk are just never happy :lol :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Any concerns after the Gns are fair enough, I wasn't convinced he was going to stay - we've seen it all before after all. However winning The Derby was proof of his greatness. "beat horses below their best" - where is the evidence for this? Delegator and RVW ran their best races when 2nd in the 2000 and Eclipse - total nonsense. The comment above about the Arc performance is beyond crap, this person has no idea about race-reading and judgement of performances. I wish this chap all the luck in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhound Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Brilliant Sea The Stars,yesterdays Arc was an awsome performance.The best ever? i have seen all the great horses since 1956,i would put him in my top 5.Sea Bird.Brigadier Gerard,Nijinsky,Mill Reef,Sea The Stars.There's no way Sea The Stars would have beat the Brigadier over 1m and probably not over a mile and a quarter,the Brigadier won on going from Heavy to rock hard,they where going to take STS out of the arc if had rained to much,what happened to great horses can win on any going.It would be great to see STS back next season taking on the classic crop.But it looks like he will be off to stud never to be seen again.A lot of people don't like the arabs,but i bet if they had him he would be back next season.What would this flat season have been like without STS's in my eye's only moderate.Anyway theres only been one really great horse in my racing days.the man himself,Arkle.Cheers Greyhound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars What a performance that was yesterday and I layed the bugger. As Winsome said I was also at Newmarket the day he won the guineas but I never for one minute thought he would go on to achieve a fraction of what he has. Such a pity that he didn't come against Zarkava in the same year. I nearly missed the race too as I was down the gym and only just rememebered to change the channel in time. I shall always remember where I was the day STS won the guneas and the ARC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Brilliant Sea The Stars' date='yesterdays Arc was an awsome performance.The best ever? i have seen all the great horses since 1956,i would put him in my top 5.Sea Bird.Brigadier Gerard,Nijinsky,Mill Reef,Sea The Stars.[b']There's no way Sea The Stars would have beat the Brigadier over 1m and probably not over a mile and a quarter,the Brigadier won on going from Heavy to rock hard,they where going to take STS out of the arc if had rained to much,what happened to great horses can win on any going.It would be great to see STS back next season taking on the classic crop.But it looks like he will be off to stud never to be seen again.A lot of people don't like the arabs,but i bet if they had him he would be back next season.What would this flat season have been like without STS's in my eye's only moderate.Anyway theres only been one really great horse in my racing days.the man himself,Arkle.Cheers Greyhound To be fair Sea The Stars has won on five different going descriptions, from g/f to sft/hvy. STS may not have beaten BG over a mile, but by the same token BG would not have beaten STS over 1m4f. I suppose it's irrelevant, and why it's so fard to compare the generations. The only way is to compare achievements, 2000g, Derby, Eclipse, and Arc is going to take a world of beating. :welcome to PL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhound Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars billy the punter thanks for the welcome,i should not really be a fan of STS,last October i took 40/1 Delegator for the 2000gns on Betfair.Only a £5 ew, at the time i didn't realise what a great horse beat him.Its sad not to see him back next season flat racing in particular needs its stars,when we get one off it goes to stud.Its all money these days.Cheers Greyhound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jug Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Marvelous horse, totally gutted that he won't be up against Rachel Alexandra in the Breeders Cup :cry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbettle Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars I was there yesterday. I doubt I will see such an amazing horse ever again in my lifetime. What a privilege. Pics to follow ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Marvelous horse' date=' totally gutted that he won't be up against Rachel Alexandra in the Breeders Cup :cry[/quote'] Imagine a Sea The Stars Colt/Filly out of Rachel Alexandra :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJarvis Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Marvelous horse' date=' totally gutted that he won't be up against Rachel Alexandra in the Breeders Cup :cry[/quote'] There is no comparison. STS is a real racehorse. I wouldn't trust any of the Yanks horses, nothing but machines running on drugs. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars In a real race (grass) I bet 1/10 STS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Personally I don't blame them if they decide not to run, even as a racing fan I'm happy for him to stay at home. He has little to gain, I'd worry about "ruining" the perfect season. So much can go wrong out there. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBoyRooney Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars I've been looking about different forums etc... just to gauge an overall opinion of what punters truly think of STS. Generally it's been all positive and ranking him up there with Sea Bird, Dancing Brave, Brigadier Gerard etc..... However, there are some who are generally never satisfied. One poster elsewhere, said this after the Guineas win. After the Derby win. After the Irish Champion After the Arc Some folk are just never happy :lol :lolyeah what a fool,especially as Youzmain put in a great performance,in fact sea the stars was 2.5 seconds faster than last years winner zarkava:drums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexmac Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars My thoughts: STS is clearly the greatest horse I have ever seen, and I have been lucky enough to have seen him in the flesh a number of times this season. I have only been 'in the game' for 10 years or so however, and with all the publicity STS has received a number of true racing greats have come to my attention. It is difficult to pit what STS has achieved against fellow greats like Sea Bird and Dancing Brave. The repertoire of distance and going STS has is exceptional, and what he has achieved this year is incredible. However, is it ever going to be possible to truly compare STS against the all time greats. Interestingly enough, I have just read that STS rating has been left unaltered after the Arc, at 135, as his Arc run was only judged as being 131. Not up to the standard of his Irish win, but a stunning success nonetheless. Also, for what it is worth - the BBC do my head in with regards to racing, ie - they do not give a shit. But I thought their coverage of the Arc yesterday was better than I had been expecting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars I read that RE the OR's too Alex. 131 WOW. Smith said he may go up further depending how Rip Van Winkle fares in America later in the season but that his current rating of 135 is a minimum for him at the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars My thoughts: STS is clearly the greatest horse I have ever seen, and I have been lucky enough to have seen him in the flesh a number of times this season. I have only been 'in the game' for 10 years or so however, and with all the publicity STS has received a number of true racing greats have come to my attention. It is difficult to pit what STS has achieved against fellow greats like Sea Bird and Dancing Brave. The repertoire of distance and going STS has is exceptional, and what he has achieved this year is incredible. However, is it ever going to be possible to truly compare STS against the all time greats. Interestingly enough, I have just read that STS rating has been left unaltered after the Arc, at 135, as his Arc run was only judged as being 131. Not up to the standard of his Irish win, but a stunning success nonetheless. Also, for what it is worth - the BBC do my head in with regards to racing, ie - they do not give a shit. But I thought their coverage of the Arc yesterday was better than I had been expecting... The thing with OR's is that it's based on the handicapper's opinion of the form, what he beat. I find the handicapper is too rigid with his opinions in such matters, lack of/too much pace or races being run to suit (or not) is never taken into account, this is actually a good thing for handicap punters. ;) I don't think the race was particularly run to suit STS yesterday, it definitely suited Youmzain though, therefore I think the performance is a little under rated, by some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars The handicapper being Phil Smith? I'm sure when he was on The Morning Line (last week? week before?) he was as good as saying then, regardless of what STS done at Longchamp it was unlikely his rating would rise any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jug Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Personally I don't blame them if they decide not to run, even as a racing fan I'm happy for him to stay at home. He has little to gain, I'd worry about "ruining" the perfect season. So much can go wrong out there. :ok I think Sea The Stars is going to America, I meant the trainer of Rachel Alexandra has decided not to enter her in the Breeder Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars I think Sea The Stars is going to America' date=' I meant the trainer of Rachel Alexandra has decided not to enter her in the Breeder Cup[/quote'] Yep. Although it's stated today that STS is now only 50/50 to go. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars The handicapper being Phil Smith? I'm sure when he was on The Morning Line (last week? week before?) he was as good as saying then, regardless of what STS done at Longchamp it was unlikely his rating would rise any. Yeah Phil Smith. I think he said that because he wasn't taking on any "new" threats, beating the same brigade again he wasn't ever going to go up. However to rate it 4lb inferior to the Champion Stakes is questionable in my opinion. That said, I tend to disagree with the handicapper quite a bit. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowles10 Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars i grew up watching Derbies etc from a young age & the one that sticks in my mind is Dancing Brave, surley the best horse never to win the Derby? It had a turn of foot to outstrip any horse in its generation & was so exciting to watch. I don't think i have seen a 3yo horse since come anywhere near DB until now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars I realise times primarily are to do with pace and how fast the going is; they are difficult to compare. But there are no course records left from the 1960's which suggests those horses racing in the present decade are (as a group) faster (better) than their relations of 45 years ago. And this despite watering (making the ground “slower”) being far more prevalent these days. Therefore, it seems reasonable to suggest the best horses of this decade are also capable of running faster (are of higher merit) than their 1960's counterparts. In the same way Bolt can be thought of as a better human sprinter than Lewis. The 145 given to Sea Bird by Timeform, should (in my opinion) be a rating to show how much better he was compared to rivals of his era. I do not see the rating as comparable to 2009. There's been many advances with training and feeding methods in the last 45 years. Are trainers wasting their time with these feeds and methods, if racehorses of the 60's were capable of better form? Racing is far more competitive these days, you only have to look at big handicaps. Even in the 80's, the bottom weights were often some way out of the handicap; yet today they are usually nowhere near automatic bottom weight. So, if racing is more competitive today. It stands to reason the best horses will not be as far clear (in merit) as their current rivals; compared to back in the 60's. Let's just celebrate Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave and Sea the Stars as brilliant Arc winners. There is very little prospect Timeform will put up Sea The Stars rating (from 140) after Sunday's performance, on the contrary they're more likely to reduce it. The rating produced to win the Arc by two lengths from Youmzain, with heads back to Cavalrymen and Conduit was not his best. Youmzain's rating may go back to last year's Timeform rating 131. Unless they think Jabber's inconsistent six year old improved; just about possible blinkers made a difference; but I doubt it. Conduit I believe ran to form on 130 and Cavalryman improved. Fame And Glory ran below form, not getting a good ride and hampered; probably made no difference to the result. Sea The Stars performance probably a little below form, worth a rating (imo) of around 135+ or 136+. Zarkava (133) and Sea The Stars's Arc wins deserve to be rated equal, allowing for the former being a filly with a sex allowance. The Aga's girl also beat Youmzain two lengths, but was at her best. Sea The Stars's “below form” rating (if I am right) should be put in to perspective. It's still possible he's better at ten furlongs. But I prefer to put it down to pulling early on, hampered more than once and not being in the best position. Oxx's super Star's turn of foot was electric and a tremendous performance, all things considered. Timeform have: Sea Bird 145, Brigadier Gerrard 144, Tudor Minstrel 144, Ribot 142, Abernant 142, Windy City 142, Mill Reef 141, Sea The Stars 140, Dubai Millenium 140, Dancing Brave 140, Shergar 140, Vaguely Noble 140. But with the arguments above, I think Sea The Stars has a legitimate claim to be the best ever racehorse. Whether he is or not, I'd like to see more evidence. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Thanks for some superb races STS :notworthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blair Boy Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Sad News In a way although we knew it was coming sooner or later, Shall be looking forward now to see what sort of horses he can produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowgli77 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars They'll be hoping he's not a jaffa or needs horsey viagra, an excellent horse and a shame it has been retired but money talks. I saw the Arc the other day and thought the performance was fantastic, Kinane just cantered over the line with ease while Fallon threw everything at Youmzain and I think STS is better than the rating it has been given despite the opposition it has faced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheerluck Holmes Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Bit of a stupid question but what is the reasoning behind the retirement? I'm guessing its because he'll make a lot more by getting his end away then he will from prize money? Does him being retired at the peak of his powers have anything to do with potential stud fees also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blair Boy Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Re: Sea The Stars Bit of a stupid question but what is the reasoning behind the retirement? I'm guessing its because he'll make a lot more by getting his end away then he will from prize money? Does him being retired at the peak of his powers have anything to do with potential stud fees also? I suppose the decision was purely financial, He has proved what a great horse he is so they will be thinking why run him in any future races and risk damaging him physicaly and also putting a defeat on his record when he can go out on a high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.JPG.8c5a15b710f7a4188ce438df64354c1e.JPG)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.