teaulc Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 for tournament play??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI It will depend a lot on the size of the tournament, the blind structure, and of course on how good you are and how good the field is. Just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if the top players in the WSOP main event would have a ROI of 500% (although of course the variance is huge and it only happens once a year, so nobody's going to live long enough for their actual ROI to be statistically meaningful). On the other hand, in a 60 player turbo I'd guess the top players might have less than a 50% ROI. But as I say, just a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI ok,so how about over a year,multi tourney variations in buy in? what sort of target would be acceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiceofjoe Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Theres and article about this in last months Poker Player (with matasow on front). Obviously over a huge number of hands but Moormans ROI is 37%. And apparently one of the top $1-$10 MTT specialists 'Bluntman' has a ROI of 17% over 10,628 Tournaments. In the money 16.63% of the time and longest non cashing streak of 51 tourneys. Obviously a big winn in your non usual stakes wouild make a massive difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardman123 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI I was thinking about this the other day and think that 20% is probably about right. I really need to start keeping records of the tournaments i play to calculate figures such as ROI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino1980 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Hey all, I wrote that article for PokerPlayer (i'm their strategy editor) and whilst it's certainly possible to have an roi% exceeding 100% over the long term that's by no way the mean. If you OPR Annette_15, JohnnyBax and AjkHoosier for PokerStars they've all got amazing ROI%. AJK is 162% over 5113 mtts (this is skewed by one score of $900k), Annette = 108% over 2782 mtts and Bax is 87% over 5479 mtts. Of course they're complete sickos and way above what what be considered good. Shaundeeb who has won the PokerStars Yearly TLB for the last two years is a really good example of something to aspire to. This guy puts in insane volume all will play anything froma $3r a $20 180 man mtt to the $200re-buy. His stats show a 57% roi over 13910 tournaments with an ABI of $77. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlunB Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Hey all, I wrote that article for PokerPlayer (i'm their strategy editor) and whilst it's certainly possible to have an roi% exceeding 100% over the long term that's by no way the mean. If you OPR Annette_15, JohnnyBax and AjkHoosier for PokerStars they've all got amazing ROI%. AJK is 162% over 5113 mtts (this is skewed by one score of $900k), Annette = 108% over 2782 mtts and Bax is 87% over 5479 mtts. Of course they're complete sickos and way above what what be considered good. Shaundeeb who has won the PokerStars Yearly TLB for the last two years is a really good example of something to aspire to. This guy puts in insane volume all will play anything froma $3r a $20 180 man mtt to the $200re-buy. His stats show a 57% roi over 13910 tournaments with an ABI of $77. Try again! Sorry PL, silghtly immature private joke... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlunB Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Good post though. He knows his stuff that dino. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino1980 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Yes i sucks at teh grammar :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Shaundeeb who has won the PokerStars Yearly TLB for the last two years is a really good example of something to aspire to. This guy puts in insane volume all will play anything froma $3r a $20 180 man mtt to the $200re-buy. His stats show a 57% roi over 13910 tournaments with an ABI of $77. If you look at Shaundeeb's record in more detail, it illustrates perfectly the point I was trying to make in my reply to Al's original question, which is that MTT's vary such a lot that it's really not possible to give a sensible answer to "What ROI?" Broken down by field sizes, Shaundeeb's record looks like: 19-180 players (6260 tournaments): ROI = 20%. 181-1000 players (4081 tournaments): ROI = 60%. 1001+ players (3919 tournaments): ROI = 168%. If it were possible to break down the results according to blind structure, I suspect you'd find that also made a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI I'm grinding about 19% at lower level STTs, so i'm sure way more than this is possible for a good player (I consider myself average at very best) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Alan's question was a 'sustainable' ROI, so that depends on what you need to sustain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI does he really mean sustainable or achievable over the longer term when variance has smothed out luck ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI sustainable means sustainable doesnt it? achieving a satisfactory ROI and keeping or beating that level over a long period of time. from what i have read and has been posted 20% seems to be about average,yes or no? i think what i am asking is this,i have been very rigid in keeping my games recorded this year and i was wondering at the end of the year what sort of ROI a reasonable player should be hitting. i am mainly a tournament player which i why i asked the question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie14 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI So you want to know what ROI you can reasonably be expected to achieve and be able to sustain it throughout the year. :ok ........so that's two questions really Al :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI So you want to know what ROI you can reasonably be expected to achieve and be able to sustain it throughout the year. :ok ........so that's two questions really Al :tongue2 now who`s being pedantic??:tongue2:tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie14 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI now who`s being pedantic??:tongue2:tongue2 ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI now who`s being pedantic??:tongue2:tongue2 Oiiiiiiiii - that's my job around here........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Oiiiiiiiii - that's my job around here........It is? :unsure Does AvonGirl know? :loon Al, I know it seems like a simple question, but I'm not sure I understand it. :$ Surely all you need is a positive ROI in order to maintain/sustain your 'roll at any level....or am I being dim? (very likely) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Getting (swiftly) back on topic :tongue2 1 year for multiple types of MTT I wouldn't view as a particularly large sample for saying X% is the goal - a few (even one) positive results could have a massive impact on the ROI - similarly, the absense of one large result could over impact results too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI Getting (swiftly) back on topic :tongue2 1 year for multiple types of MTT I wouldn't view as a particularly large sample for saying X% is the goal - a few (even one) positive results could have a massive impact on the ROI - similarly, the absense of one large result could over impact results too.... I was going to make a similar point. :ok Especially in large field MTTs, the variance is HUGE. Yesterday I had a look at the payout structure for the PokerStars Sunday Million. If you were an "average" player (by which I mean one who will finish in a random position) and played the Sunday Million every week for fifty years, then the standard deviation in your ROI over that period would be about 30%. That means that if you played the tournament for a poker lifetime, and judged yourself purely on your ROI in those tournaments, you couldn't even be that confident that you were a "(very) long term winning player" if you had around a +50% ROI up to that time. The variance is less in smaller tournaments, but even if, say, you play 500 MTTs with fields of a couple of hundred over the course of a year, I reckon the standard deviation of your ROI over that period would still be something like 10-20%: i.e., if you're a "+20% player", then it's not that unlikely that you'd have a losing year (or have a +40% year, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: what would be a sustainable ROI wish i hadnt asked now :D:D:D seriously guys,thanks,always good to get a little discussion going :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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