Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

[billy the punter]

Haven't played for a while due to time. This happened in my first tournament back since the two I played on the staking forum. Decent size buy-in. Blinds were 100/200 - still pretty early. Folded around to me, I have 6s4s in the SB. I make it 700 to play. BB calls. EEK! Flop was T64 rainbow :nana. I bet the pot, 1400. BB calls. Turn was K - board now T64K Now I wasn't sure what he called with, possibly a TEN I'm thinking. Obviously KT is a possibility, but at this point, given the pot size - I ain't passing. I move in for my remainder which was about 5000 (pot was 4200). He calls in a flash with AK. AK? If there is a lesson on how not to play AK then this is it. Flat calls pre-flop heads up - WRONG Calls with nothing on flop after missing - WRONG Calling all in with one pair on turn - Fair enough maybe, but I would never have got to the turn. River another TEN! :puke I'm 97.3% favourite on the flop when I bet the 1400 and 81% fav when I went all in. (I had to check it on the calculator! Really should just let it go). I was sick as a pig and left cursing the total fish who busted me, but I've since been thinking. Did I play this well? I don't think I did. a) I didn't REALLY need to steal from the SB I suppose, although it I made up the BB he would've raised and I probably woul've seen a flop as we were both fairly chipped up. b) I should bet smaller on the flop. I'm in pretty good shape and have no one to fear at the table. I don't need to play big pot. I should be playing smaller pots. I know this but I just had a rush of blood and forgot my usual tactic. If I bet smaller on the flop I don't go bust. Once the turn comes I should check-call, or even bet small again. This way there is still plenty of player AFTER the turn, this way I can get away from the hand when it's clear I've been outdrawn. Ok, so it wasn't bad play as such - I got it all-in when 81% fav after all! Maybe I'm being over critical of myself and reading too much into things. But, I should know better than to give lesser players a CHANCE to bust me. Keep the pots small if you're in control at the table. If I did so this bad beat would not have been as damaging as it was. Maybe this isn't the best example but it certainly pays to keep pots small when you are comfortable in a tourn. Any views on this hand or the "small-ball" thoery?

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? bad call pre-flop i reckon - you're saying he shouldn't be in the hand by the turn - I agree but imo you shouldn't be in the hand at all!

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

bad call pre-flop i reckon - you're saying he shouldn't be in the hand by the turn - I agree but imo you shouldn't be in the hand at all!

Call? I didn't call preflop mate.

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

Call? I didn't call preflop mate.

oops my apologies... :$ still think you shouldn't have bothered with it tho!

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

oops my apologies... :$ still think you shouldn't have bothered with it tho!

Maybe not, and that is one of the points I raise but I tend to raise a lot in the SB if folded around. Doesn't everyone? ;) My questions is really about post-flop strategy though.

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

Maybe not, and that is one of the points I raise but I tend to raise a lot in the SB if folded around. Doesn't everyone? ;)

ahhhh thnks for the info..... If I ever get to be on your table I shall remember to re-raise you everytime you're on SB ;) I never bluff! :tongue2

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

ahhhh thnks for the info..... If I ever get to be on your table I shall remember to re-raise you everytime you're on SB ;) I never bluff! :tongue2

Yes I did think that - will have to delete that post! :lol

[GeordieGaz]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? post flop I think your play is fine..... just bad play frm ur opponent. But tbh you want him to call with rubbish after the flop when ur a 97% fav.... tis easy money unless he hits a miracle which he did in this case! :(

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? Yes I'm probably being too anal (:loon). But obviously after the river if there is still play it's an easy fold for me. This probably isn't a great example, but I do think there is a definite argument for keeping things small most of the time.

[AJ]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? nothing wrong post flop. The guys a fcukwit and he donk'd out, it happens

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? you played it fine, he played it kinda bad I suppose. Why would you want to avoid doubling up 80% of the time?

[GaF]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

I tend to raise a lot

That's probably why he stuck around.

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

That's probably why he stuck around.

So many things wrong with this post GAF. a) you're giving him for too much credit. b) you've mis-quoted me. I said I tend to raise a lot in the SB IF FOLDED AROUND TO ME. This was the first time it was folded around to be in the SB in this tourn. c) even IF you're right, and he "stuck around" thinking his hand was good then that is also bad play as it would've been a mis-read - he was behind. I was hoping to get some interesting debate going regarding small ball poker, it's a sophisticated concept but worth discussing, if you can. ;):ok

[GaF]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

So many things wrong with this post GAF.

It's a good job I deleted the rest of what I typed out before posting it then :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :tongue2

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

It's a good job I deleted the rest of what I typed out before posting it then :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :tongue2

I'd love to know, I could do with a laugh. You deserve credit actually, for attempting to defend the man who took evens about a 33/1 shot! :lol

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

I'd love to know, I could do with a laugh. You deserve credit actually, for attempting to defend the man who took evens about a 33/1 shot! :lol

GaF's definately going to reply now:lol:lol

[GaF]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? I didnt defend him (or try to) - all I did was try to offer an explanation as to a possible reason he didnt fold.

[GaF]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? And 33-1 - is that all? How many hands a week do you play? You must see dozens of 33-1 shots overturned regularly :tongue2

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

AK? If there is a lesson on how not to play AK then this is it. Flat calls pre-flop heads up - WRONG Calls with nothing on flop after missing - WRONG Calling all in with one pair on turn - Fair enough maybe, but I would never have got to the turn.

It may have been the right decision for him tho, gotta remember that. :unsure

[BAM]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? Can't see why you would raise 3.5 times preflop? but cannot see anything wrong with his call either. A pot bet with 2 pair is good but as you say you are building a pot with no information on his hand a check raise may have got you some more info or taken the pot down. Once you have been called for the 2nd time are you not concerned you maybe behind? you have bottom 2 pair you could be behind to a wide range of hands. A small probe may have been more prudent or a check and see what size bet he leads out. SB v BB there is always suspicion that each other is at it and now he has TPTK he may think he is ahead so I do not mind his call, I'm sure we all gamble now and then, the river is incidental. I assume this is a live game and he may have been acting on other information he had on you so you cannot dismiss this as a complete donk play. Small ball and pot control is down to yourself and it all starts from the first bet, once you get bet sizing wrong and fail to seize control over the size of the pot you end up getting them all in behind or in this case ahead the 80/20 dog gets lucky

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

I didnt defend him (or try to) - all I did was try to offer an explanation as to a possible reason he didnt fold.

But he had no history on me so there can be no explanation. Besides I'm really talking about my play and how I failed to keep the pot small. I do know what you're trying to say though.

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

It may have been the right decision for him tho' date=' gotta remember that. :unsure[/quote'] Correct play for him was to get as much in preflop as possible. Fact. :tongue2 As we can see he got outplayed after deciding to see a flop, then the poker gods kicked me in the Niagras.

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

Can't see why you would raise 3.5 times preflop? but cannot see anything wrong with his call either.

I'll raise anything from 2.5x to 3.5x times (which is "pot"). I'm not questioning his call PREflop. I'd raise personally but I'm certainly not saying he shouldn't be playing AK!

A pot bet with 2 pair is good but as you say you are building a pot with no information on his hand a check raise may have got you some more info or taken the pot down.

Yes I agree, this is kinda my point. I was unlucky, but it could've been avoided had I played it differently. Check-raise on the flop (if allowed to do so) would've won me less but kept me in.

Once you have been called for the 2nd time are you not concerned you maybe behind? you have bottom 2 pair you could be behind to a wide range of hands. A small probe may have been more prudent or a check and see what size bet he leads out.

Yes there is a chance I'm behind but I don't think I can pass on the turn with what's in the pot. If I bet small and he raises all in I have to call. I like the idea of betting smaller on the flop, check calling the turn and getting away from the suckout after the river.

SB v BB there is always suspicion that each other is at it and now he has TPTK he may think he is ahead so I do not mind his call, I'm sure we all gamble now and then, the river is incidental.

Yes the call on turn is fair enough - I said that earlier, although I would never have got that fair with AK, I would've taken it down preflop or passed on the flop. The call on the flop is the shocking call.

I assume this is a live game and he may have been acting on other information he had on you so you cannot dismiss this as a complete donk play.

Was online. Although I must say, over the past 3/4 years the standard of bigger live tourns has dropped and there doesn't seem a gap between live and online anymore in my opinion.

Small ball and pot control is down to yourself and it all starts from the first bet, once you get bet sizing wrong and fail to seize control over the size of the pot you end up getting them all in behind or in this case ahead the 80/20 dog gets lucky

Absolutely, I made the pot too big too early, cardinal sin for me. Cheers WASP. :ok

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

I was hoping to get some interesting debate going regarding small ball poker, it's a sophisticated concept but worth discussing, if you can. ;):ok

For a start I hardly think you set off with the intention of playing small ball poker - 3.5 x BB preflop on a SB vs BB situation You then put in a pot size bet on the flop and push on the turn !! Hardly small ball - :D If your intention really was to play small ball (and OOP for the whole hand its not the ideal situation) then I'm maybe putting in a raise to 500 here. Its probably all dependent on your view of the player - I prefer a raise rather than the limp as it gives more creedence in representing a strong card on the flop, if your 46 don't hit. On the flop I'm betting 800 - if he replies then I'm thinking he's hit that flop in some way as theres very few draws or he's missed but got something like 77,88,99. The King on the turn looks pretty innocuous and another bet here of around 1000 should win it for us, if he responds even after the large overcard has hit (which he does) then - I'm happy to check call the river. I'm not certain he's would even bet (at least not massive) on the river when the 2nd Ten falls - but we would never know :eyes The outcome of the hand was still pretty much the same, but you would have had chips left to live another day. (BTW one of my favorite trappy hands also 46 :ok) Sorry I wrote this and you've probably repsonded to most of these in your answer to WASP - while I was typing :$

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

For a start I hardly think you set off with the intention of playing small ball poker - 3.5 x BB preflop on a SB vs BB situation You then put in a pot size bet on the flop and push on the turn !! Hardly small ball - :D

EXACTLY MY POINT. This is what I'm trying to say. THIS is where I made the mistake. It's something I rarely do too, I just had a rush of blood if you like. I didn't bet correctly (with regards to my situation) preflop, on the flop or on the turn (despite me being well infront). The point is not only to discuss the benefits of small ball (and the problems of not playing it) but for us to think back and decide if we could've done anything different - even if we WERE unlucky. Hold 'em is never cut and dry and we should all over-analyse in my opinion. :ok

[BAM]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? If it was online why do you not post the HH it is easier to read and then we have suits and everything :ok

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

If your intention really was to play small ball (and OOP for the whole hand its not the ideal situation) then I'm maybe putting in a raise to 500 here. Its probably all dependent on your view of the player - I prefer a raise rather than the limp as it gives more creedence in representing a strong card on the flop, if your 46 don't hit. On the flop I'm betting 800 - if he replies then I'm thinking he's hit that flop in some way as theres very few draws or he's missed but got something like 77,88,99. The King on the turn looks pretty innocuous and another bet here of around 1000 should win it for us, if he responds even after the large overcard has hit (which he does) then - I'm happy to check call the river. I'm not certain he's would even bet (at least not massive) on the river when the 2nd Ten falls - but we would never know :eyes The outcome of the hand was still pretty much the same, but you would have had chips left to live another day. (BTW one of my favorite trappy hands also 46 :ok) Sorry I wrote this and you've probably repsonded to most of these in your answer to WASP - while I was typing :$

Don't apologise, this is the sort of discussion I was looking for. Thank you. I agree the bust could've been avoided even if the beat couldn't. :ok

[billy the punter]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided?

If it was online why do you not post the HH it is easier to read and then we have suits and everything :ok

Will bear that in mind WASP for future, although personally I find them hard to read to be honest. Think it's just me though. :$ :ok

[george2loose]

Re: Could This Sick Bust Been Avoided? Not read all of the replies but breaking down: pre flop: Fine- contrary to what people say I don't mind the raise at all- it has a good chance of getting through blind on blind- you're taking control of the flop post flop if he calls and also disguising your hand if a connecting board comes flop: I wouldn't pot it here although a continuation bet is in order. trn onward: pretty standard From the villians point of view I think a flat call or a re raise pre flop is fine although I tend to re raise here. His call on the flop for a pot size bet is pretty terrible imo but people tend to get crazy blind on blind. Unlucky- move on. These things happen- it's good you're analyising the hand but try not to be results orientated. I'm betting if the river had blanked we would never have seen this post on the forum