goater14 Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Any thoughts on this hand last night guys? Reason I,m asking the guy on my table was,nt to impressed with my play, even called me a Wayne!:unsure. I think its a automatic all-in and would,nt even consider folding with the blinds about to hit me on the next round. Anyone here think I played this hand like a Wayne:$. ***** Hand 1230441352 ***** 500.00/1000.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:58:26 PM VRoll Satellite (Real/Tournament) Seat 1: CKitty (10383.00) Seat 2: goater14 (3936.00) Seat 3: 1eggster (10306.00) Seat 4: bmw1958 (9479.00) Seat 5: GlasgowLad (10544.00) Seat 7: MUTS NUTS (5393.00) Seat 8: Lorraine15 (6093.00) Seat 10: 0valman (8541.00) 0valman post SB 500.00 CKitty post BB 1000.00 ** Deal ** CKitty [N/A, N/A] goater14 [8s, 5c] 1eggster [N/A, N/A] bmw1958 [N/A, N/A] GlasgowLad [N/A, N/A] MUTS NUTS [N/A, N/A] Lorraine15 [N/A, N/A] 0valman [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** goater14 All-in 3936.00 1eggster Fold bmw1958 Fold GlasgowLad Call 3936.00 MUTS NUTS All-in 5393.00 Lorraine15 Fold 0valman Fold CKitty Fold GlasgowLad Call 5393.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [6d, Jd, 4d] *** Turn(Board): *** : [6d, Jd, 4d, 4h] *** River(Board): *** : [6d, Jd, 4d, 4h, 5s] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 17022.00 CKitty Fold Win: 0.00 goater14 [8s, 5c] Two pair fives and fours Win: 14108.00 1eggster Fold Win: 0.00 bmw1958 Fold Win: 0.00 GlasgowLad [10h, Ac] Pair of fours Win: 0.00 MUTS NUTS [Kc, Ah] Pair of fours Win: 2914.00 Lorraine15 Fold Win: 0.00 0valman Fold Win: 0.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? Terrible play, Wayne:tongue2. I'd push without hesitation:ok WTF is a Wayne BTW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? The right move and you were in great shape to treble up. I think GlasgowLad was wrong to get ivolved with 3 left to act behind only just though. (Just noticed you won the hand:lol:ok) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goater14 Posted September 10, 2008 Author Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? Terrible play, Wayne:tongue2. I'd push without hesitation:ok WTF is a Wayne BTW? I,ve no idea, been called a lot of things in poker but never a Wayne:lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? I always struggle reading these hand history things. You pushed UTG preflop yeah? I have no idea why you made that play if I'm honest. I don't get it. I know you're on BB next hand but the chances are you'll then be able to go to war with a hand better than 8 high and you'd have seen all the action before doing so. It's auto-fold in my book. But you were actually in fair shape considering you were called twice - and you trebled up, jammy sod. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? There is the chance (35%??) that you'll get it folded to your push, and you'll pick up the blinds and buy time. It's actually not a shocking hand, you're likely to have live cards against callers, you're not in appalling shape against likely calling hands such as AK. Better to push now, than next hand when you've got action before you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? The difference being Billy he could have similar crap next hand and if someone puts him allin he knows he's behind and would probably fold. At least by shoving he has fold equity and isnt in bad shape when called unless it's an overpair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? M of under 3 and blinds next hand?! No way on earth you can fold - cards are completely immaterial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? I don't think there is much fold equity when raising less than 3k UTG. Yes there could be scary action before he acts next hand but even if he doesn't have a hand then he'll still have the famous 'live hand chance' - he can at least make a decision based on more info. Besides even if he has to fold, he still has 2900 for the SB hand. I would rather wait and see what the BB or the SB (with 2900) brings rather than push with a full table behind me with 8 high. T9 suited would be my cut off with regards to pushing UTG. Another point, as always, is what has gone on previously, if your stack has just been damaged (hand before say) then it's definitely the wrong move to push. I don't like blind plays like these personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? M of under 3 and blinds next hand?! No way on earth you can fold - cards are completely immaterial. I really can't understand this. Don't forget smaller stacks get called more often due to the gambling factor. Is it just me at the moment? :lol But to be honest, I loathe to gamble in tournaments - it's just ain't me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? The others don't have huge stacks and so if they call and lose 4k they're gonna be in bad shape. I got blinded away in a tournament in London the weekend when I should having been moving in with hands like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? Is it just me at the moment? :lol No, I agree with you. I think people are missing that you effectively have fold equity next hand (even though you're last to act!) because the other players will be (or at least, should be) expecting you to call a raise, barring a lot of action before it gets round to you. I'd fold without thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? The others don't have huge stacks and so if they call and lose 4k they're gonna be in bad shape. I got blinded away in a tournament in London the weekend when I should having been moving in with hands like this I don't agree with getting blinded away either - I'd be moving before I was this low though, that way it's not a blind all-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? The others don't have huge stacks and so if they call and lose 4k they're gonna be in bad shape. I got blinded away in a tournament in London the weekend when I should having been moving in with hands like this Hijacking the thread slightly but where abouts in London have you played Steve? What did you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? Is it just me at the moment? :lol But to be honest, I loathe to gamble in tournaments - it's just ain't me. No, I agree with you. I think people are missing that you effectively have fold equity next hand (even though you're last to act!) because the other players will be (or at least, should be) expecting you to call a raise, barring a lot of action before it gets round to you. I'd fold without thinking. I'm in with you two as well. I don't blame anyone who makes that move... I can understand it even if I don't agree with it although I can't help thinking that its a case of choosing your mode of execution rather than having it forced upon you. I'd ask just how bad your cards were one orbit earlier for you not to shove when you had a bit more fold equity (or was it a case of getting hit as AJ says). Also, just supoosing you folded UTG...then you were forced to fold your BB and SB... you'd have 2k in chips and another orbit - in that scenario surely you're likely to get something a bit more appealing. There is the chance (35%??) that you'll get it folded to your push Is it that high? :eek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? Hijacking the thread slightly but where abouts in London have you played Steve? What did you think? It was The Loose Cannon Mate. Thought it was pretty shoddy tbh. The dealers weren't up to scratch, the tables too small and it was the worst buffet I've ever seen. Appart from that it was grand;). The only other place I've played in London was The Big Slick a couple of years ago and that was far better just in a far worse area:lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? It was The Loose Cannon Mate. Thought it was pretty shoddy tbh. The dealers weren't up to scratch, the tables too small and it was the worst buffet I've ever seen. Appart from that it was grand;). The only other place I've played in London was The Big Slick a couple of years ago and that was far better just in a far worse area:lol Yeah I played Loose Cannon once as a favour as my mate was running a tourn. Wasn't enjoyable. The Vic (can't remember if you've said you have played there before) is the only real place to be honest. Give us a shout if you're ever up again and I'll show you around the Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? how did the rest of the tournament go, please say you got crippled a few hands before as opposed to waiting waiting waiting nearly getting blinded out and then pushing UTG with 85o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? Correct play IMO. When im short and shoving im looking for cards that if I get called im in decent shape against, i.e. I would rather shove with 45 off than A6 off and chances are a calling hand will have you wrapped up if you hold A6. I wouldnt have let myself get so low, but with blinds next two hands taking about half your stack you have to shove here and hope. Not a tough choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? I'm in with you two as well. I don't blame anyone who makes that move... I can understand it even if I don't agree with it although I can't help thinking that its a case of choosing your mode of execution rather than having it forced upon you. I'd ask just how bad your cards were one orbit earlier for you not to shove when you had a bit more fold equity (or was it a case of getting hit as AJ says). Also, just supoosing you folded UTG...then you were forced to fold your BB and SB... you'd have 2k in chips and another orbit - in that scenario surely you're likely to get something a bit more appealing. Is it that high? :eek The trouble with this though is we have virtually no fold equity and if we double up we've onnly got back to where we were to start with - 3900ish chips. As for the initial question I don't see anything wrong with the play. Obviously it's not ideal to get so low but we don't know the circumstances of how he got there - I'm sure he didn't get that low on purpose. :) Wayne! WTF?! :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? When im short and shoving im looking for cards that if I get called im in decent shape against, i.e. I would rather shove with 45 off than A6 off and chances are a calling hand will have you wrapped up if you hold A6. I've quite often read people saying similar things, but I've never really been convinced. Against just about any "top X%" calling range, A6o does better than 45o. For example, against a top 5% hand (99+ AJs+ AKo KQs), A6o is about 28% and 45o is about 26%. Of course, it's true that if they call with a big ace, you're better off with 45o, but on the other hand, if they call with a big/medium pair then you're much better off with A6o. OK, if you think their calling range will contain more big aces and fewer aceless hands, then you can cook up a range against which 45o does better (e.g., if the calling range is 1010+ AJs+ AQo+, then A6o is about 26% and 45o is about 28.5%). But since about two-thirds of the hands in that range need an ace, you're significantly less likely to be called if you have an ace when you shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? I've quite often read people saying similar things' date=' but I've never really been convinced. Against just about any "top X%" calling range, A6o does better than 45o. For example, against a top 5% hand (99+ AJs+ AKo KQs), A6o is about 28% and 45o is about 26%. Of course, it's true that if they call with a big ace, you're better off with 45o, but on the other hand, if they call with a big/medium pair then you're [b']much better off with A6o. OK, if you think their calling range will contain more big aces and fewer aceless hands, then you can cook up a range against which 45o does better (e.g., if the calling range is 1010+ AJs+ AQo+, then A6o is about 26% and 45o is about 28.5%). But since about two-thirds of the hands in that range need an ace, you're significantly less likely to be called if you have an ace when you shove. kinda what i wanted to say but i didnt have the patience (or skillzzzzz) to write it all out like that, good post. edit/ In simple terms to me, basically with 45o you are never ahead when called, with Ax you are going to be just ahead or flipping a lot of time heads up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goater14 Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 Re: Automatic shove? how did the rest of the tournament go' date=' please say you got crippled a few hands before as opposed to waiting waiting waiting nearly getting blinded out and then pushing UTG with 85o[/quote'] Got crippled earlier so just trying to find a spot to push with. As you can see with the chip stacks the v-roll is quite a brutal structure (apart from the final)so towards the end their is,nt a lot of play (perhaps that's why I do well in it:$). Thanks for the response guys your comments are appreciated:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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