I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

[happygooner]

Basically I see huge potential in making money from horses but reading through this article makes you truly sad. how can I justify profiting from so much miscare and suffering if that truly is the case?:sad If the horses are loved so much then why are there not more rules enforced to protect them??:( So much of this (or at least definitely a substantial enough proportion) just tells the facts: Horse racing: Why this so-called Sport of Kings makes me sick to my stomach By LIZ JONES Last updated at 21:30 12 April 2008

• Comments (16)
• Add to My Stories

I am at Aintree for my first Grand National, the spectacle millions of people around the world are watching, the ultimate showcase of British racing, and I am wading through a sea of empty plastic beer bottles. On the approach to the course, I had already seen dozens of young men who, caught short, had been disgorged from their minibuses and were openly urinating by the side of the motorway. Now, I am surrounded by red-faced young women, dressed to the nines, clutching plastic ice buckets containing bottles of champagne. By the end of the day, they are being hoisted on to their boyfriends' backs, barely conscious, with vomit down their ridiculously over-tanned cleavages. Do you agree with Liz Jones? Give us your opinion below Scroll down for more... Calling for compassion: Liz Jones at Aintree, where she was watched carefully by security guards because, she says, she was with an Animal Aid member Having fought my way to the Red Rum bar to buy some water, I find there is none on offer, and nothing to eat either, merely booze, booze and more booze. Which shouldn't come as a surprise, I suppose, given the Grand National's sponsorship by John Smith's beer: the more inebriated the punters, the more cash they will wager. But what shocks me most is the disrespect given by this horrible mob to the horses in a day of sport I can liken only to bear-baiting or dog-fighting. By close of play one horse would be dead, many more injured, and I would, literally, be made sick to my stomach at the spectacle of this so-called Sport of Kings. I had arrived at the course with Dene Stansall of Animal Aid, a perfectly respectable registered campaigning organisation that has lobbied for many years for racing to be made more humane. I noticed lots of security guards and policemen suddenly whispering into their radios and, before we had even gone through the turnstiles, Dene was told he would not be allowed entry. This wasn't entirely unexpected. At the previous day's meet when two horses - In The High Grass and Time To Sell - had been killed in a race even the BBC commentator described as "headless", meaning it was run at a reckless pace, Dene and his 14-year-old daughter, Scarlett, had their arms twisted behind their backs and were marched off the course. Scarlett was bruised and badly shaken, and is currently instigating legal action. I start to wonder what the racing industry is trying desperately to hide. The party atmosphere at the Grand National Because I had turned up with an animal rights activist, I am closely watched throughout the day, and at one point marched from my vigil by the Chair, the notorious 15th fence with its yawning 6ft ditch, and told to stay in the Press room. Managing to shake off security, I later stand within view of fence number 21, just in time to see the 40 runners in the 2008 Grand National set off. Whenever a horse falls, turning cartwheels, crashing on to its neck - and it happens often, only 15 horses will complete the course - the crowd around me cheers. One riderless horse starts galloping the wrong way, and the crowd around me begins to jeer it. And then the inevitable happens. Nine-year-old McKelvey, perhaps the most famous horse in the race because of a recent BBC documentary about his long, slow recovery from an injury sustained in last year's National, unseats his rider on the second circuit at the 20th fence. He continues riderless then, terrified, he rears and falls backwards. It is sickening to see him go down, flailing, unable to get up, eyes wild, but what is worse is that the people around me are laughing at him. A horse ambulance is on the scene in seconds, he is diagnosed with a broken back, a screen goes up and he is destroyed on the spot. The fatality barely warranted a mention on the Radio 4 news. Even more shameful was the way BBC2 glossed over it. As Andrew Tyler, director of Animal Aid, told me later: "The BBC routinely plays down the death and suffering of thoroughbreds. "It has spent months promoting the supposedly heroic journey of McKelvey. Now he is dead - and predictably so. Let the BBC cover that, not as a tragic accident but as a cynical sacrifice with which it is complicit." Was McKelvey's death preventable? I tried to speak to his trainer, Peter Bowen, but he has yet to call me back. Although in a statement, Bowen stressed the horse was "100 per cent fit", I found out that McKelvey had competed in only two hurdle races since his injury last year, in which he had shown no ability. And since Bowen stated how "Muckers" was adored by everyone on the yard, I wonder that he was put at such risk. This is the strange dichotomy of those who work in racing. They claim to love their horses - so many I spoke to, including the trainers of the two horses that died last week, referred to the animals as "pets" - but still they allow them to risk breaking their necks in front of thousands of jeering drunks, and to be whipped up to 20 times in one race while clearly exhausted, all to feed the extremely lucrative racing and betting industries that put very little store in the welfare of these amazing, graceful animals. Inevitable tragedy: McKelvey falls at the 20th and although he tries to recover, his back is broken. He was later shot Including the fatalities last weekend, a staggering 38 horses have died at Aintree since 1997. Since March last year, 180 horses have died on British racecourses. One in 35 British thoroughbreds that start a season will be dead by the end of it. The most lethal racecourse last year was Sedgefield, County Durham, where 11 horses died in 17 days of racing. Eighty-five per cent of deaths occur on National Hunt courses, although flat-racing has its critics: as one equine physiotherapist explained: "Backing horses at the age of two is a complete and utter abomination. "Not only are they still babies - foals are often weaned far too early - but their skeleton is immature ... which means putting a rider on their back causes pain and predisposes them to physical problems, such as arthritis, later in life." The biggest misconception I have found among the public is that "the horses love it". That is why they continue to race, even when they have lost their jockey. But that is patently nonsense. Horses are herd animals, and will run to keep up with the herd when frightened. They would not naturally jump the likes of Becher's Brook: thoroughbreds are intelligent animals and do not have a death wish. So many people in the industry told me how the horses "love to do their job". Well, did Little Brick love his job before he was killed at the 2007 Cheltenham Festival? He was in an overcrowded three-mile-plus race after a 490-day lay-off and had never been tested on such a difficult course. Or how about Earl Compton, who had been raced five times in 17 days before he broke a leg at the Southwell course in Nottinghamshire? Or Lochanee, who died at Sedgefield last November? He had struggled in six previous races and was a complete no-hoper when he had to jump 16 fences over two-and-a-half miles. He tried really hard to keep up, then simply collapsed and died. Another horse, 11-year-old Priests Bridge, died after being forced to race having given birth. She was so exhausted she fell and broke her neck. Some mares are even raced while in foal. The second big misconception is that the horses are incredibly well cared for. I agree that, looking at the horses at Aintree, they seemed in the peak of health, immaculately groomed and polished. But when you visit a racing yard, which can have more than 100 horses in training, you will rarely see one turned out in a field: they are far too valuable to risk getting kicked. So each is kept in its stable for 23 hours a day, only allowed out for its allotted hour of intensive exercise. Scroll down for more... Deadly gamble: Horses tackling the formidable Becher's Brook in this year's race One groom told me: "There is a horse here on my yard that has been kept in his stable for eight years. "He is never turned out because he is a stallion, which means he would fight, and because of an injury, he can't be raced. "He is too bonkers to be rehomed, so I imagine he will soon be shot." Simon Earle, who runs a racing yard in Wiltshire, believes there is a more natural way of training horses. He found that 90 per cent of horses were sustaining injuries, so he set about finding out why. "The problem is that if a horse is kept in for 23 hours a day, its circulation is bad, which promotes injury. "Racehorses are fed high-energy food, which means not only are ulcers rife, but that when you exercise or race him his eyes will be popping out of his head, and riders will be unable to control him and will fall off. "I turn my horses out in herds, which allows them to forage and to let off steam and play, and consequently I have only two jockeys fall off a year, in training or in competition." Half the horses on his yard race without shoes or racing "plates", which are responsible for the majority of tendon injuries when poorly fitted. He believes, too, there is still "massive misuse of the whip". But the biggest tragedy of all is not the horses which die on the course, but those that leave racing, either through old age or injury: 6,000 simply disappear from the sport every year, and there is no system to keep track of them. Weatherbys, the industry's record-keeper, issues mandatory passports for all racehorses, but this is merely to curb disease. There are also simply too many horses. About 18,000 foals are born into the British and Irish racing industries each year, yet only around 40 per cent go on to race. Those that do not make the grade are routinely slaughtered. For a multi-million-pound business, there are very few safety nets in place. There are two retraining centres, Moorcroft and Heros, and two rescue centres: the Thoroughbred Rehabilitation Centre in Lancashire, and Greatwood in Wiltshire, which was founded by the redoubtable Helen Yeadon. At Greatwood I was stunned to see, among the 54 immaculate rescued horses at the spotless stables, so many former stars of racing that have fallen by the wayside. High And Mighty, a former winner at Royal Ascot and Glorious Goodwood, was found by Helen badly emaciated and covered in rain scald. Another horse, which had been round Cheltenham, was found in a scrap yard without a rug or even any food. Helen told me she is now so overcrowded she can only put at-risk horses on a waiting list. Greatwood receives a levy from every bet, and although the amount is small - of the £500,000-a-year cost of running Greatwood, just £70,000 comes from levies and donations from those in the industry - Helen is understandably reticent about criticising racing. She would say only: "I believe most trainers and owners, most lads and lasses, love their horses, and they do try to find them a good home. "It is more often that the person who takes them on cannot cope, so the horse enters a downward spiral." I came across just such a horse last year. She was six years old, had an amazing flat-racing record, but something had gone wrong and she had been left in a rutted field for a year, spending the winter without any feed or even a rug. Her hooves had split, becoming so painful and infected she could barely walk. I took her on, bought some stables, some land and the best natural feed I could find. And while she still has problems - she hates men, and farriers in particular - she has proved to be an intelligent, loving, gentle little horse. But not everyone has the resources to spend on rescuing just one horse, which is why the Horserace Betting Levy Board, racing's funding body, should be forced to plough more money back into animal welfare. At the moment it takes 10 per cent of bookmakers' gross profits to channel into the industry: scandalously, of the £90 million levy imposed in 2006/07, just £56,000 was donated to racehorse rehabilitation. I am not calling for a ban on racing, but for the British Horseracing Authority to enforce tighter regulations to ensure horses are not being over-bred, over-raced or over-faced (of the deaths on courses in the past year, 47 horses had no qualification in the discipline in which they were racing). Numbers in the field need to be limited: overcrowding was surely a contributing factor in the race at Aintree in which the two horses died. A new licensing system needs to be put in place, too, to ensure that anyone who takes on a thoroughbred-has the necessary know-how, and sufficiently deep pockets. My visit to Greatwood made me think the parade of former Grand National winners before the big race last week was a blatant propaganda exercise, especially when I learned from Helen that 1984's winner, Hallo Dandy, had been found in a field in "a dreadful state". She agreed that racegoers often have no interest in, or compassion for, the horses. "We often stand outside meets shaking buckets to raise money, and you would not believe the abuse we get from racegoers," she said. "They will often say, why not put the horse in a can of dog meat when he's gone past the post? It really is disgusting." Print this article Read later Email to a friend Share this article:

• Digg it |
• Del.icio.us |
• Reddit |
• Newsvine |
• Nowpublic |
• Facebook |
• MySpace

Add your comments View all Comments (16) Here's what readers have had to say so far. Why not add your thoughts below? Thank you for writing this article. Its a tragedy that horses are used and abused and cast aside in such a way. I took one on that had earned 60,000 pounds in winnings - he was due to be shot because of a tendon injury. I had to pay them meat money (£400) to buy him. He was an utterly lovely boy and is now ridden and has a new life and career with a lovely owner - after a long period of rest. They don't deserve to be treated in such a way - its disgusting. - Cr, Staffs, 12/4/2008 23:39 Well done for your compassion Liz. You are a very brave lady and speak the TRUTH. It is only the ignorant, immoral, callous lowlifes (no matter how much money they have) that will abuse you and respectable organisations like Animal Aid. There is simply too much money in racing. But this article will be sent to everyone we know, and we urge everyone else to do the same. It is about time the public knew the FACTS. - Glander Family, E Anglia, 12/4/2008 23:30 Bravo Liz Jones, the campaigners and those refuges taking in these magnificent, horribly abused creatures. Someone has to hold the British Horseracing Authority to account and force them and the owners to back up their claims to care for the animals who give them their very comfortable livelihoods with real action. What about the Daily Mail starting a campaign to force them to do so? I'd definitely take part. - Ruth, Glasgow, Scotland, 12/4/2008 23:24 I know the mail is almost on par with the Sun but please ATR members, put this in perspective for me.:(

[TheRat]

Re: I would really like to get some educted comments on this article I found An article that is written from one point of view She wants to get one point across, which is clear, and has has gone about that. She has not really tried to be argumentative imo It is similar to videos I see on the internet about such things as 9/11 and various other documentaries. Michael Moore is a good example. Interesting to watch but totally one sided, and doesn't explore more than one angle Same thign with this article For arguments sake, let's say I believed in animal testing, I could easily go out and make a one hour documentary, or write and article in favour of it if I stuck to one point of view, and I could even provide evidence to back up my viewpoint, and vice versa Its clear from the article, the language she uses and descriptions she uses she is only using this article for one thing, and that is give a negative angle on the sport many love

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educted comments on this article I found

An article that is written from one point of view She wants to get one point across, which is clear, and has has gone about that. She has not really tried to be argumentative imo It is similar to videos I see on the internet about such things as 9/11 and various other documentaries. Michael Moore is a good example. Interesting to watch but totally one sided, and doesn't explore more than one angle Same thign with this article For arguments sake, let's say I believed in animal testing, I could easily go out and make a one hour documentary, or write and article in favour of it if I stuck to one point of view, and I could even provide evidence to back up my viewpoint, and vice versa Its clear from the article, the language she uses and descriptions she uses she is only using this article for one thing, and that is give a negative angle on the sport many love

Agreed. But how much exposure was actually given to Mckelvey after what happened? This is a serious question as I had honestly been unaware. Can people tell me that most horses are retired properly and live out a healthy life after their career ends? Again not a judgement but a serious question. Again can people tell me that horses who don't make the grade live a healthy life doing all manner of other activities?

[Cassius Marcellus]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found I'll start :ok I am at Aintree for my first Grand National, the spectacle millions of people around the world are watching, the ultimate showcase of British racing, and I am wading through a sea of empty plastic beer bottles. On the approach to the course, I had already seen dozens of young men who, caught short, had been disgorged from their minibuses and were openly urinating by the side of the motorway. Now, I am surrounded by red-faced young women, dressed to the nines, clutching plastic ice buckets containing bottles of champagne. By the end of the day, they are being hoisted on to their boyfriends' backs, barely conscious, with vomit down their ridiculously over-tanned cleavages. You're supposed to be there to watch the horse racing, not the pissheads, who have no effect on the horses whatsoever. Having fought my way to the Red Rum bar to buy some water, I find there is none on offer, and nothing to eat either, merely booze, booze and more booze. Which shouldn't come as a surprise, I suppose, given the Grand National's sponsorship by John Smith's beer: the more inebriated the punters, the more cash they will wager. This may come as a surprise, but John Smiths are brewers, not bookmakers. Punters bet with bookmakers, whether they are drunk or sober.

[billy the punter]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found I can put it in perspective. Complete and utter rubbish, fabrication of facts to prove a biased and ignorant opinion. Some instances are preventable, I was very vocal in slagging off Irish 'trainer' Luke Comer for running a horse early season. I totally blamed him for the horses death. However such types of deaths are a TINY minority. And of course there are stories of poorly treated animals, again this is very rare. It's like saying childbirth should be banned due to certain children being abused. People without actual, first hand knowledge of horse/training/yards should not be listened to when spouting their views. Wonder if she knows how many show jumpers are injured every year through rapping? She wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

I'll start :ok I am at Aintree for my first Grand National, the spectacle millions of people around the world are watching, the ultimate showcase of British racing, and I am wading through a sea of empty plastic beer bottles. On the approach to the course, I had already seen dozens of young men who, caught short, had been disgorged from their minibuses and were openly urinating by the side of the motorway. Now, I am surrounded by red-faced young women, dressed to the nines, clutching plastic ice buckets containing bottles of champagne. By the end of the day, they are being hoisted on to their boyfriends' backs, barely conscious, with vomit down their ridiculously over-tanned cleavages. You're supposed to be there to watch the horse racing, not the pissheads, who have no effect on the horses whatsoever. Having fought my way to the Red Rum bar to buy some water, I find there is none on offer, and nothing to eat either, merely booze, booze and more booze. Which shouldn't come as a surprise, I suppose, given the Grand National's sponsorship by John Smith's beer: the more inebriated the punters, the more cash they will wager. This may come as a surprise, but John Smiths are brewers, not bookmakers. Punters bet with bookmakers, whether they are drunk or sober.

Not actually interested in the beer drinking part of this story. I would be at the bar myself :lol

[Cassius Marcellus]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found I had arrived at the course with Dene Stansall of Animal Aid, a perfectly respectable registered campaigning organisation that has lobbied for many years for racing to be made more humane. I noticed lots of security guards and policemen suddenly whispering into their radios and, before we had even gone through the turnstiles, Dene was told he would not be allowed entry. This wasn't entirely unexpected. Why did he go then ? He hates it, yet he picks the biggest race day in the betting calendar. Did he have a ticket to get in ? :lol

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

I can put it in perspective. Complete and utter rubbish, fabrication of facts to prove a biased and ignorant opinion. Some instances are preventable, I was very vocal in slagging off Irish 'trainer' Luke Comer for running a horse early season. I totally blamed him for the horses death. However such types of deaths are a TINY minority. And of course there are stories of poorly treated animals, again this is very rare. It's like saying childbirth should be banned due to certain children being abused. People without actual, first hand knowledge of horse/training/yards should not be listened to when spouting their views. Wonder if she knows how many show jumpers are injured every year through rapping? She wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to hear but you have to ask the question. In any case though it does clearly state the intention is not to ban but to make safer. Is it possible you think to make things safer than they are and if so is it all down to the coinage that it's not being done?

[welshman443]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found well said cassius , could'nt agree more

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found And again, can anybody provide me with an answer to post 3#?

[billy the punter]

Re: I would really like to get some educted comments on this article I found

Agreed. But how much exposure was actually given to Mckelvey after what happened? This is a serious question as I had honestly been unaware. Can people tell me that most horses are retired properly and live out a healthy life after their career ends? Again not a judgement but a serious question. Again can people tell me that horses who don't make the grade live a healthy life doing all manner of other activities?

Her opinions on Mckelvey just proves her lack of knowledge. Yes, deaths are always reported by TV. They don't show close ups of the horse in distress because the public do not want to see that. But they DO report such things. He did blow up in those hurdle races after his lay off but that was to be expected. She is basically saying that horses shouldn't run as they have had the odd bad race and 'not showed ability'. Ok love. Amazing that she knows more about the horses than Peter Bowen too. The future of ex-race horses is an important issue. Obviously it's impossible to track every horse. If there is any bad practice then individuals should be taken to task, not the sport.

[TheRat]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found It's like Bullfighting here. Now, when I arrived here I wasn't into it, and thought it was just a cruel thing. However, I worked with someone, who is English and has a secoond to none knowledge with horse pegigrees as it happens (just say a horse and he can instantly say who its by, what the sire and dam won etc etc) who was into it, along with his girlfriend They told me more about it, what the bullfighters do, whats good, what is not, the culture and history of bullfighting, and how the bulls are treated until they enter the ring and the rest. Now I love it because I understand it. Been a fair few times myself, but I think it's a similar thing with horse racing in that people that don't fully understand it just make negative assumptions. Of course it is different in the way the bulls are sent into the ring to be killed. By the way, anyone read "Death in the Afternoon" by Hemmingway? Excellent book and and cracking insight into bullfighting

[billy the punter]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to hear but you have to ask the question. In any case though it does clearly state the intention is not to ban but to make safer. Is it possible you think to make things safer than they are and if so is it all down to the coinage that it's not being done?

I have written to the authorities on more than once with regards to a rule that I believe needs to be brought in. Horses of a certain level (very low) shouldn't be allowed to run. I'd say any horse rated under 40 at the end of his/her 4yo career should not be allowed to run. But we're talking about a minority again - I just happen to think it would be a fair rule. With regards to the majority of cases, then there is nothing that can be done. There doesn't need to be in my opinion. It's a sad part of the sport, thankfully it doesn't happen a lot.

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educted comments on this article I found

The future of ex-race horses is an important issue. Obviously it's impossible to track every horse. If there is any bad practice then individuals should be taken to task, not the sport.

And presumably you would agree about those that don't make the cut as well? I'm glad to say my mind has been put at rest. I'm an animal lover (not whackjob activist mind haha!) and the idea of making a gain from an industry which healthily promoted animal suffering would be unthinkable. Thanks people:ok

[billy the punter]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

And again' date=' can anybody provide me with an answer to post 3#?[/quote'] Depends what you think is a happy life after racing? Do you think the women in question would approve of say a horse being given away or sold to a local yard and bought by a young girl to ride as a hobby?

[billy the punter]

Re: I would really like to get some educted comments on this article I found

And presumably you would agree about those that don't make the cut as well? I'm glad to say my mind has been put at rest. I'm an animal lover (not whackjob activist mind haha!) and the idea of making a gain from an industry which healthily promoted animal suffering would be unthinkable. Thanks people:ok

99% of racehorses are loved and looked after magnificently.

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

Of course it is different in the way the bulls are sent into the ring to be killed.

Hmmm....yeah my opinion on that is totally different as I am against all bloodsports.

[SteveO]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found Of course it is a very biased article and many non racegoers would be appalled by what they read. I have to be honest though I think the Grand National is a barbaric race and don't bet on it (although this is purely from the point that it's a lottery). I remember stating on here that I thought that it was terrible that they decided to run Beef or Salmon in this years race carrying top weight and this in itself led to people questioning is a horse more worthy of not running in the race than others. I love animals and maybe I am a hypocrite for my love of horseracing but I also eat meat which I think is even more hypocritical of me.

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

Depends what you think is a happy life after racing? Do you think the women in question would approve of say a horse being given away or sold to a local yard and bought by a young girl to ride as a hobby?

All sounds very nice:ok

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

With regards to the majority of cases, then there is nothing that can be done. There doesn't need to be in my opinion. It's a sad part of the sport, thankfully it doesn't happen a lot.

But what initially prompted me to start searching for info was when I read that there had been 211 death in 444 days:eek That surely seems a lot, even when you look at other dangerous sports??

[billy the punter]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

All sounds very nice:ok

Well it's actually far from ideal. It happens are lot and sometimes it's a recipe for disaster, due to previous training/experiences etc. Not trying to be clever but just making the point that it's very hard to know what is best without true first hand experience of these great animals. :ok

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

I love animals and maybe I am a hypocrite for my love of horseracing but I also eat meat

Same here but I think there is a difference between killing animals for food as opposed to making them suffer for entertainment and money. That's why this issue is so important.

[billy the punter]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

But what initially prompted me to start searching for info was when I read that there had been 211 death in 444 days:eek That surely seems a lot, even when you look at other dangerous sports??

Where did that figure come from? Not disputing it just wondered. How many runners were there in that period?

[SteveO]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

But what initially prompted me to start searching for info was when I read that there had been 211 death in 444 days:eek That surely seems a lot, even when you look at other dangerous sports??

That does seem a terribly high number Gooner. I wonder how those stats would compare with cross country horse jumping etc.

[TheRat]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

Hmmm....yeah my opinion on that is totally different as I am against all bloodsports.

But the reason I mentioned it was because the argument against this woman is she has no real knowledge of racing Now, I was against bullfighting when I first came here, had the same opinion as you, I'm sure, but once I understood it my opinion changed

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

Where did that figure come from? Not disputing it just wondered. How many runners were there in that period?

A fantastically named site I stumbled across called www.horsedeathwatch.com (sorry for the link):( Probably a HUGE amount of runners but it's still very sad and reprehensible IF it can be avoided or lessened in any way.

[SteveO]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

Same here but I think there is a difference between killing animals for food as opposed to making them suffer for entertainment and money. That's why this issue is so important.

I agree but you can see where I'm coming from. We as humans in Western society could quite comfartably get by without eating meat yet I and the vast majority choose not too. I think it's the same with regards to making money from animals as entertainment.

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

But the reason I mentioned it was because the argument against this woman is she has no real knowledge of racing Now, I was against bullfighting when I first came here, had the same opinion as you, I'm sure, but once I understood it my opinion changed

Another debate for another day:ok

[happygooner]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

I agree but you can see where I'm coming from. We as humans in Western society could quite comfartably get by without eating meat yet I and the vast majority choose not too. I think it's the same with regards to making money from animals as entertainment.

Errrr..........my missus is a veggie:$

[TheRat]

Re: I would really like to get some educated comments on this article I found

Same here but I think there is a difference between killing animals for food as opposed to making them suffer for entertainment and money. That's why this issue is so important.

Just out of interest, how do you feel when put like this God knows how many animals are killed for food each day. A small number of bulls are killed in the ring each day (in bullfighting season) Up until the time in the ring these bulls are treated like kings. Fed the best meat there is, kept in tip top conditions etc. The bulls themselves in a fight are just as important as the bullfighter. If the bulls in a show are bad the crowd will start abusing the breeder, "**** you bredder" and the rest the bulls are obviously then killed 99/100, but are then used for food, not just discarded. At Las Ventas here, the most famous bullfighting ring in the world, there is actually a place on site where they are instantly turned into meat!