No limit cash game heartache

[mrmuzeman]

Hi guys, As a couple of u know ive just started playing 0.25/0.50 cash games on Ladbrokes. First day I made $55, 2nd day made $20. Just now on my third day I lost my $50 buy in (which was at $66 when I entered my last hand) :( I'll explain the hand and what happened then wish for advice. Although I think I played it well hopefully. Under the gun the guy who beat me raised to $2. This guy had acummulated a large stack but had been getting very lucky on the showdowns I saw (AJ beating AK all in etc). He kept raising very big to bully people who had called small raises out of pots and was being a bit maniac. All folded round to me in the small blind. I had KK. I knew it as the best hand so raised to $7. After a think he then re-raised to $17. I then called the remaining $10. Thought he probly had AJ AQ or something. I admit I was slightly peturbed by the action. Flop came 10d 8d 6h I thought pretty nice flop but theres a flush possibility so bet $8. He then raised me $48 to put me all in. I thought obviously possibility of aces. I thought more likely QQ but every likelihood just a flush draw the way he had been playing trying to catch cards. I called all in for my remaining $40. I didnt like doing it though never been involved in a pot like this before. Turn came 9c and river came 6d. If he had have been chasing the flush he would have rivered it :( However he had pocket 77 and picked up his gutshot straight :\ Was he playing way reckless or is it just me? Should I have got away from the hand expecting him to hold AA, TT, 88 or 66?

[mrmuzeman]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Ive thought about tis for a bit now. I should have gone all in preflop shouldnt I. If he had folded I still would have picked up a very nice $17.50 profit which is a good pot. If he had called with 77 id take it every time. But he would have folded. Was it my poor play or his poor play that landed me in it? Or a combo of both and some luck for him do you think? :unsure

[heniek31]

Re: No limit cash game heartache You lost to the fckin loon who got very lucky. IMO, if he had AA he wouldve raised your $7 preflop, therefore you had the best hand. After the flop its getting tougher, as he could have got trips with any of cards on the table or as you though chasing flush. I understand your call, but Im sure some will disagree. As you said he was bully and throwing money everywhere and If I wasnt on "bad beat day" I would probably have called him too. Very unlucky mate :\.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: No limit cash game heartache He did raise my $7 bet preflop. Sorry Heniek I only edited my post with that piece of info just after you saw my post.

[heniek31]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Hmmm. That changes things. You see so many AA against KK those days. Still, if I was up as much as you were on the day, I woud have called. It came out you got very unlucky.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: No limit cash game heartache I think my play was fine (although I could have gone all in preflop) until the all in call. After calling with my KK I was effectively saying in a way that he may have aces and I hoped to hit trips on the flop to bust him. After he put in that big re-raise after the flop I should have put him on aces and folded I very much think. Having said all that the actual mathematical facts were that I was about 70% fave when i went all in (I think thats correct) so I still did get unlucky in a kind of way. I dont think my play helped things though.

[staffy]

Re: No limit cash game heartache I think I would have played similar to yourself preflop. You put it in a raise with your KK. However you were reraised $10. I would have probably called this not knowing the player just to see the flop but I would have been worried about the AA. However after the flop and the large bet as much as it would have been tempting to call I would seriously have considered folding and probably would have. So many time I have seen people lose to trips or aces. The problem is you had been watching a payer bully the table and asumed that you were in front which you actually were and he got lucky on the river. So you could say it was a good call from yourself as you were infront. One thing to remember these bullies or lose players will always lose long term if you play a patient game against them. Let them make these big bets and sting them when you have the "nuts". It will happen i assure you. You just have to hope that its you who has the nuts against them. Good luck for future games. Let us know when your playing and if I am around I will try and come on to laddies for a game with you.

[CJB]

Re: No limit cash game heartache I'm no expert at poker but I think there is a danger in these types of threads that people "over analise" their own games. As far as I can see you were aware of the dangers but you read your opponent well and got your money in when you were ahead. I think you were 75% fav so basically 25 times in 100 you are going to lose. this was just one of those times. Just reload another 50$ and start again.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: No limit cash game heartache

Ive thought about tis for a bit now. I should have gone all in preflop shouldnt I.

You had two options once he reraised. Respect Aces and fold. Or in this case where you noted he was a bit of a tool, set him all in before the flop. He would have still called, and you would have still lost HOWEVER....I think he probably figured you had AK once you flat called the reraise, and as such the flop looked good for him. He may believe he has the best hand. By moving in preflop your telling him that you dont have some crappy AK but indeed a real pair. If he chooses to call anyway well thats his problem and hes playing loosing poker

[Dave Mardell]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Actually. Ignore what i just said. Ive seen the reason you got outdrawn The pot would have been almost $35 on the flop. You bet $8. This bet REEEKS of weakness. A bet 1/4 of the pot says ive got nothing but a 4/1 draw. Flush or straight or somesuch. Had you moved all in the second the flop came down free of an ace he would have either passed, or been caught calling off all his money with 6 outs. If he choses to gamle well thats fine nothing you can do but I think your bet on the flop said "I got nothing".

[mrmuzeman]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Ok Cheers guys. I understand your reasoning there Dave mardell. Youre right about the bet of $8 there. I am new to cash games and I admit I did get nervous about the whole hand. But thats why Im starting on 0.25/0.50 so I dont roast myself if I play poorly. In the future I must learn to be more bold in situations like this. With the $8 bet I was just hoping hed go away to be honest. Id called his pre flop raise then bet out and if he was pretty much bluffing which I thought he might be, he may have folded. I didnt put him on aces. Therefore I should have gone in preflop. Thanks for all your help. Jezza's, Dave's and others opinions still appreciated on this hand please

[Dave Mardell]

Re: No limit cash game heartache The problem with betting $8 and hopinh he goes away is hes still being given great pot odds to draw a LOT of hands. If hes got two diamonds, hes priced to call. Also if hes got something like A9d then hes got 9 diamonds for flush, 4 sevens for straight, and 3 aces for better pair to hit. Hes probably about even money to win the hand and would likely call in that spot but you damn sure dont wanna let the bare flush draw in, or the bare gutshot draw in. If hes got a set then its probably tens but you know if hes calling and raising like that with tens then he deserves to get paid when he gets lucky. Certainly wont be flopping his set very often. 7/1 in fact. Youll milk it all back in the long run if hes playing like that. Also I know both Jezza and I have advocated buying in for the max in another thread but if your new to cash games then it might be worht buying in for maybe half or a third of the max for a while until you get comfortable. If you make a mistake you wont loose too much, and maybe having a few less chips infront of you will give you a bit more ocnfidence when sticking em all in.

[Jezza]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Sorry about the delay in replying to this thread MrM...I am late for going out for dinner > watch the football > out on the piss so will have to reply tomorrow..... Jez

[Dave Mardell]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Whats your username on Ladbrokes then Mr M?

[mrmuzeman]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Cheers DM I know I just played the hand too weakly. Username is mr_muse_man

[Dave Mardell]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Cheers. Ill keep an eye out for ya :)

[Jezza]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Hi MrM..... You were a bit unlucky here mate but lets take a look at the hand step by step....

Under the gun the guy who beat me raised to $2. This guy had acummulated a large stack but had been getting very lucky on the showdowns I saw (AJ beating AK all in etc). He kept raising very big to bully people who had called small raises out of pots and was being a bit maniac. All folded round to me in the small blind. I had KK. I knew it as the best hand so raised to $7. After a think he then re-raised to $17. I then called the remaining $10. Thought he probly had AJ AQ or something. I admit I was slightly peturbed by the action

Your play here seems fine to me MrM. Usually on cash tables it is quite (very) rare for me to be all in preflop for the max against a player who also has the max with kings. If I raise preflop with kings and get reraised generally I will just smooth call the reraise...first of all I can see if an ace flops and secondly against a good player there is a decent chance he has aces so I will take a flop and make a decision then as to what he has. However your situation here is different...first of all you are up against a total fud as you have witnessed who just likes to raise a lot to bully, gamble and try get lucky. I would have reraised him exactly as you did. When he comes back with a rereraise to 17 then moving all in is not really a bad play at all. He would probably have called with by far the worst of it (you can be fairly sure you have the best of it as he is so loose, aces are a possibililty but you cant really worry about them from this sort of player) and you would be gambling in a great spot. However smooth calling was actually probably the better option for two reasons 1) You get to see if an ace flops and 2) You are slowplaying a little against a very aggressive player (exactly the type you want to slowplay against) and giving him some rope to hang himself (more on this on the flop play)

Flop came 10d 8d 6h I thought pretty nice flop but theres a flush possibility so bet $8. He then raised me $48 to put me all in. I thought obviously possibility of aces. I thought more likely QQ but every likelihood just a flush draw the way he had been playing trying to catch cards.

Ok this is not really the worst flop in the world for you, you didnt really want to see an A or a paired board in the playing zone (something like QQx or JJx - although you have to pay this guy off if he does get lucky like that, even a QQx or JJx flop shouldnt stop you getting all your chips in on the flop against this particular player, I was more talking in general) - anything else and you are probably going to go through with your kings against this guy but like you realised there is a flush draw there. You now have two options...if you choose to bet this flop which is never a bad play when you think you have the best hand then you have to pretty much move in. When you have the best hand vs a flush draw you must come in with pot sized bets - seeing as this pot was already over 40 dollars and you have not much more than that behind you you should just have moved in if you wanted to bet. You are going to call him if he moves in so why not be the one who makes the first move - a bet of 8 dollars is pretty weak in this spot and a definate area of improvement although to be fair it didn't actually cost you anything this hand as the end result was the same. The second option was the one that I would have gone for - the check-raise. He put in the last raise preflop so he still thinks he is in charge, he is super aggressive and is a bully. You just KNOW he is betting this flop if you check, and almost certainly pot commiting himself. I would have checked..let him bet the majority of his stack and check-raised all in over the top.

called all in for my remaining $40. I didnt like doing it though never been involved in a pot like this before.

Dont worry about this mate..it comes with the territory. In tournaments its a bit more worrying when you are calling all in with two cards to come as you stand a good chance of being outed on your arse but in cash games its ok. You can be pretty sure you have the best of it and if you get bad beaten you can always reload. The large pots are always the sweetest to win and harshest to lose but if you constantly go in ahead like you did here you will only ever be disappointed as you always expect to win....although the majority of the time it will be you dragging it down. Dont worry about the fact you lost this one mate, your time will come.

Turn came 9c and river came 6d. If he had have been chasing the flush he would have rivered it However he had pocket 77 and picked up his gutshot straight

Well the best laid plans of mice and men....... This is just an unfortunate turn of random events mate. You are an 80% favourite preflop which is great but you will lose a significant amount of the time. He does pick up more outs on the flop but you still had him all in with the best of it. Those who say they would prefer someone to fold here knowing they had the worst hand (IE play against good players not fuds like this guy) truly do not understand the concept of how to make money gambling - to do that you must be in situations like you were in here - with the money commited when you are ahead or with correct pot/implied odds to draw... Run this hand a million times and you will be in the $$$...and you do have the chance to run this hand a million times just keep playing! Dont be disheartened - the cards fall the same for everyone over the long run. This hand in particular is a good example of why it is necessary to take the max to the table when playing cash. Because you could match this guys stack you had a very very good chance to bust him - and take the lot in one hand. Yes of course it stings more when we get bad beaten but having all his money commited with the worst of it is what you want.

Was he playing way reckless or is it just me? Should I have got away from the hand expecting him to hold AA, TT, 88 or 66?

He was playing pretty reckless....very LAG by the sounds of it. He was either going to win a fortune by getting lucky or get bust by a decent player, the latter should of happened but the former reared its ugly head - its good you noticed his tendancies instead of drifting onto autopilot. No you cant really get away from this hand, especially as you are commiting 17 dollars out of a stack of 60 preflop with kings - you just have to bite the bullet and accept he is going to get paid if he gets lucky. Hope that helps mate.... Jez

[mrmuzeman]

Re: No limit cash game heartache Cheers Jez, great post :clap Yeah it was my weak bet on the flop that was the bad play here. Ill remember the pot size bet with the flush draw. To be honest this is a thing I usually do BUT it was such a big pot I got a bit scared as Ive never dealt with pots like that before so my bet went a bit pear shaped! As you say a check raise would have been very nice. Its interesting to think that after the check raise he probably would have called anyway and I still would have lost! I just hope I win thuis kind of pot next time it happens. Its a bit of a bummer to lose your first all in pot when youre trying to build a bankroll :( Once again cheers for your thoughts theyre appreciated :ok (Ive achieved 232 of my 250 raked hands I need for the saturday raked hands freeroll for the cruise attempt!)