Exit Hands and blinding out

[ExcitableBoy]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us The above is my exit hand from last night's ipoker $10 $5K guarantee. I finished 51st for just over $20, somewhere around 630 runners I think. First prize was over $1K. What I want to discuss is how and when you decide to get your money in in these situations. In this tournament there was a very flat payout structure until near the FT (pretty normal). 81 places paid and it wasn't until you got to 25 that the payout reached $50. My philosophy in this sort of position where I am fairly short stacked (M was 5.5) and a long way from serious money is to try to pick good spots to steal. I hadn't played a hand for two rounds of the button and the SB's flat call looked like suited connectors or a small Ace, both of which I felt he would fold to a shove from a tight player. He didn't in this case, but I'm not gonna cry too much. Does anyone think I should have checked preflop and then shoved instead? I noticed that BurnleyJoe was out not long after me, presumably doing something similar. At the same time I have seen players on here playing down to a couple of big blinds in tourneys and dodging bullets for ages. To my mind you may ladder up a bit by doing this but you have very little chance of making a big score, but I'd be interested in hearing views. Would anyone like to share their thoughts on the strategies they adopt?

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Exit Hands and blinding out You were right to shove, anything else would have been bad. He should have just shoved in the first place, and you rightly should have called so the money was probably going in any how. Look up a push/fold graph, it will transform your game and open your eyes to spots you should be taking. When I first worked on it, I didnt realise how wide people were shoving from, for example, the button or sb, you should almost be shoving any two from these positions with 10 bigs.

[Haichan]

Re: Exit Hands and blinding out Theirs a very good training video which suggests in big tournaments you should be shoving anytime in mid tournament when you are in position and have below 15 to 20 big blinds. I tend to be more selective but will normarly never go much below 10bb. However late in a tournament its normal for most people to be below 10bb. The other night when I won the Coral sunday late in the tournament I was never shoving except in position and most times I was calling the shove of a loose player. In every case I had the best hand. Often people will shove with almost anything assuming they won't be called. You need to watch your opponents shoving range and pick your spots. Its surprising how light people are in these situations. Unless its a very big tournament and the prize jumps are big and significant, then your move was the right one. However sometimes you will shove with the best hand and still loose. Happened to me last night when I called a shove with KK and he showed 33 only to hit a 3. However bear in mind that shoving in the BB you will often be assumed by some players to be shoving light and they will call with almost any hand like A6. I probably wouldn't have shoved in that spot. However nothing wrong with your move, just unlucky that he was a bit stronger than you thought. You have to go with your reads in those situations.

[Bart(UK)]

I in all honestly play that position differently from tournament to tournament, depending on reads from the player and the table as a whole and whether I'm multitabling or not (bit of a leak I know). Generally speaking I don't like ace rag, they are the devil, the temptress, the grim reaper in waiting. Assuming getting short obviously: I personally prefer to shove higher aces (AT+) or decent (preferably suited) broadway in that spot. He will (or should) only call with some sort of a hand ie decent ace, small pair or some suited combo and having 2 live highish cards gives you much more equity than 1 high/1 low. With 2 live cards you hit roughly 30% of the time, you want to make sure that if either card hits you stand a good chance of being ahead (bearing in mind he will also hits 30% with any 2 non paired). The trouble with having a 3, 4, 5, 6 etc even if you hit there's a strong likelihood you're still behind to small-mid pair or one of his overs hitting. But that's obviously the preferred option and tournament poker rarely allows such opportunities. If the player is always open limping the sb and never giving you a walk, then it's pretty safe to say he's playing any 2, in that spot he's taking the pee imo and I would be looking to frequently raise pretty much anything and often shove. With 15bb or less I would happily take the 60% by shoving most aces there. If you run into higher ace or monster then so be it, you can't keep allowing him a free look at the flop. If he's been open raising or walking the sb a lot then obviously alarm bells should be ringing out at the limp. He's either limping a monster or a good equity suited combo. Here I'd be happy small-balling every street and either picking up a small pot or folding to any significant resistance. Player dependant a min raise can often be effective even with smallish stacks, if they're poorly skilled and wanting to see a cheap flop then they will often fold (giving you more info and future opportunities) or you are getting them to pay for -ev and have position on them post flop. If they are skilled however they should be shoving your min raise frequently with a wide range and putting you to a tourney life decision so should be avoided. At the end of the day you can't win a tourney without taking a few calculated risks along the way, with just 5m the shove is good imo. Whilst survival is vital in mtt's and laddering can often be good when large relative pay jumps, eg in a satellite with a big seat or nothing, always giving yourself a workable stack will win more over time. +1 to all players regularly revisiting an icm trainer, but ensure you don't have any such software open whilst playing. They're for pre game training and post game analysis only, most sites ban if you have running in the background whilst playing.

[ExcitableBoy]

Re: Exit Hands and blinding out Thanks very much everyone. I've had a look at the push/fold graphs which are quite an eye-opener. I guess from what Haichan and Bart are saying that what I really need to be concentrating on is profiling the other players and identifying those who are shoving light. Not so easy when you generally never get to see their hands, lol. Trouble is determining which end of the push/fold range the particular hand is. I suppose if it was easy it wouldn't be so much fun! Anyone else have a view?

[muttley]

Re: Exit Hands and blinding out Did you have any kind of information on the guy limping the sb? He's played it badly, IMO. If I was him, I'd have put you all in. I'd rather take it down now with A6, rather than risk you getting fruity and playing back with 87s or the like. I think you played it just fine, though. A4o is too good a hand to be checking here. My point is this though. When you're short stacked, beware limpers, especially if you've never seen them limp before. Even more so if they are short stacked too!

[ExcitableBoy]

Re: Exit Hands and blinding out He'd played pretty straightforward TAG. Hadn't been stealing the blinds overmuch or too speculative. I thought he would have shoved with a pair or big ace, so put him on a small suited ace or suited connectors which I thought I could force him off (or possibly split Ax or beat xx suited). I don't think he had limped before so I should have been more aware, but given my lack of chips...... If I was him I'd have shoved too. I would have had to fold A4o to a shove I think. But do I need to get involved here? Is M of 5.5 / 10BBs time to get it in or could/should I have waited another round in the hope of getting a better hand?

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Exit Hands and blinding out Against any sort of reg a4 is a fist pump snap call if he shoves from the sb. A reg will be doing that really wide, much wider than you think. Some dolts wont shove, like this guy, and if you know he's a dolt and he shoves then it is a tougher decision. If he min'd it then it's an easy 3bet shove from you, but as others have said, you need to have some sort of idea of how he's playing to make those decisions.