Help gathering data

[Karijini]

G'Day All, I have been compiling data in a spreadsheet and am looking for answers to the following questions: 1) Betfair places: Timeform lists Place BSP but does not specify amount of placings paid out for. Is there somewhere that lists this? Unlike Bookie E/W placing terms it doesn't reduce when non-runners are accounted for so the amount of placings is not relevant to the runners in the field. I could work out the overround for the place market but this would be laborious especially for large runner fields. It surprises me that it's not stipulated on the timeform results pages but it may possibly show for a paid timeform subscriber. Can anyone verify this? 2) Bookie E/W and Handicap rulings: Generally speaking, other than enhanced places that some bookies offer, are the following E/W rules adhered to for UK Bookies? 4 runners or less: Win only - if there were more than 4 runners when you placed the bet, but it was cut down to 4, then the place half is settled as a win bet. 5-7 runners: 2 places, 1/4 the odds. 8-11 runner handicaps and all 8+ runner non-handicaps: 3 places, 1/5 the odds. 12-15 runner handicaps: 3 places, 1/4 the odds. 16+ runner handicaps: 4 places, 1/4 the odds. Also are all handicap races specified on timeform meeting these requirements. In particular I am refering to the like of Amateur Handicaps, are these treated the same as normal Handicap races? 3) Rule 4 calculations: After the fact, i.e. for a race 60 days ago, is there a way of calculating R4 and is there a standard or generally accepted formula for these calcuations? I'm aware I could do this via oddschecker on the day of a race but how do I correctly calculate this for a race from 60 days ago? I suppose there must be a resource somewhere that has the odds of withdrawn horses to help calculate this. I don't need the formula to get an absolute accurate result but I need to start accounting for R4 in my spreadsheets as it can have a dramatic effect on calculating results. Any help on these three areas would be much appreciated. Cheers, Karijini

[Dices]

Re: Help gathering data 1. You have to record it by yourself, even here https://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/prices/index.php is not recorded It's not so hard to calculate it if you have your data in excel. 2. Others will answer this 3. Bad news here also, you must record horse's odds at the time of withdraw but you only need this if you record odds during the day.

[Trotter]

Re: Help gathering data 2 - yes you've got that correct All handicaps are included in the 'handicap race' places and odds for EW betting

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

1. You have to record it by yourself, even here https://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/prices/index.php is not recorded It's not so hard to calculate it if you have your data in excel.

Thanks for the response. In my spreadsheet I have Position of runner, total runners and place BSP along with other non relevant data. Since I only input selections, not the entire field, I have no way of calculating Betfair place numbers in the spreadsheet itself. That would require calculating all the Place BSP to get an overround seperately for each race which would be time consuming. It seems a fairly critical piece of data that is not being displayed on Timeform IMHO.

3. Bad news here also' date=' you must record horse's odds at the time of withdraw but you only need this if you record odds during the day.[/quote'] I'm not sure I follow you on this one. I wish to calculate the R4 for a selection say taken at 10/1 and then calculate the R4 reduction.

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

2 - yes you've got that correct All handicaps are included in the 'handicap race' places and odds for EW betting

Thank you for verifying this Trotter.

[BillyHills]

Re: Help gathering data these are the standard Rule 4 deductions for the industry, you just need to know the price of the horse withdrawn. Archive results on bookies sites like William Hill could provide this maybe?

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

these are the standard Rule 4 deductions for the industry' date=' you just need to know the price of the horse withdrawn.[/quote'] Thanks Billy, Any one know of a resource available that shows non-runners with odds? Oddschecker data is only available on the day of the race and not after as far as I'm aware, otherwise i don't know another source that has this data. For Australian racing I use to use DynamicOdds that had historical prices available for all the Australian bookies, totes and betfair. That would be a god send for recording this sort of information. They are in the process of adding more international races but until they cover UK Bookies it is of little use.

[whoneedsrio]

Re: Help gathering data With regard to 1. If you go to... http://form.horseracing.betfair.com/ Click on Cards and Results at the top & you can go back through the racing as far as you want. select the race you want & it gives all the runners with the Betfair SP, industry SP & the place price. In the bottom left corner it says how many ran & any non runners so it's easy to work out how many places they were going to at the time. For example Wolverhampton today 14.40...

7 Ran, Winning Time: 1m 16.78s Betfair SP Overround/Underround: 101% Industry overround: 111% Non Runners:

• 3. Claude Greenwood

7 ran but 1 non runner so it would be 3 places not 2. Hope this helps. Rio.

[Dices]

Re: Help gathering data 1. You should have in column A the name of the race ie in cells A50 to A60, in cells B50 to B60 horses' chances ie B50=0.256, B51=0.3488 etc. In cell C50 the formula - copied down - "=SUMIF(A20:A100;A50;B20:B100)" It will give you in every cell in column C the overound of the race that is specified in the corresponding cells in column A . 3. Why you need that a horse was withdrawn at 10am with odds of ie 8/1 ?

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

For example Wolverhampton today 14.40... 7 ran but 1 non runner so it would be 3 places not 2.

Thanks Rio, That would do the trick but unfortunately when I use Timeform it does not list any non-runners. See below for the 14:40 as displayed on Timeform free. Are you a paid timeform subscriber Rio? This may explain the missing information. Cheers

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

1. You should have in column A the name of the race ie in cells A50 to A60, in cells B50 to B60 horses' chances ie B50=0.256, B51=0.3488 etc. In cell C50 the formula - copied down - "=SUMIF(A20:A100;A50;B20:B100)" It will give you in every cell in column C the overound of the race that is specified in the corresponding cells in column A .

I have a totally different layout on my spreadsheet and generally speaking only have one selection for a given race listed. Therefore I cannot calculate the information I require unless I enter the data for all horses in the given race which would be too time consuming and unnecessary. All i need is to simply get the amount of places paid out for on Betfair for a given race.

3. Why you need that a horse was withdrawn at 10am with odds of ie 8/1 ?

So that I can calculate that there is a 10% R4 reduction on any selections in that race. Effectively I wish to calculate possible returns for each selection.

[BillyHills]

Re: Help gathering data With the R4, it does depend on which bookie you place the bet with dont forget, if a horse was 4/1 at say Hills the R4 would be 20p, if the same horse was 9/2 at Ladbrokes it would be a 15p R4, so not sure if it can ever be accurate. Obviously R4's on SP's would be the same but this only happens when a horse gets withdrawn at the start and no time for a new market to be formed. I use Hills Results page for archive stuff like the race listed below, which was from 2 weeks ago, (just search for a date). Its shows the NR's and any R4 deduction, plus it gives tote places so you know how many places there were. I think you are looking for the impossible if you want everything listed for you to be honest.

[stat man]

Re: Help gathering data Karijini Please don't fall into the trap that some people fall into when gathering data. Don't assume that just because a particular set of odds were available at a given point in time that your bet would have matched. It may not have or you may have had to accept worse odds to get matched. IMHO, there's a world of difference between the theoretical odds that you would have got when paper trading and those that you actually get when you bet for real. Sods law applies here. The bets that you wanted to get matched won't be and the ones that you didn't want to get matched on will be. In theory, sometimes you will get matched at better odds and sometimes you will get matched at worse odds. Therefore, in theory, it shouldn't matter too much in the long run. So much for theory. In practice, what tends to happen is that you will get better odds than theory on the horses that go on to lose and worse odds on the ones that go on to win. As a result, your p/l will be less than expected. As regards rule 4 - I avoid this issue by only betting after the off. Hope that this helps. Take care.

[Dices]

Re: Help gathering data

So that I can calculate that there is a 10% R4 reduction on any selections in that race. Effectively I wish to calculate possible returns for each selection.

The only reason that the info "30p reduction on bets placed between ... and ... " is needed is when: 1. you have placed bets at this period and your bet didn't win. Do you have such bets? 2. You recorded horses odds before that period, a horse withdrawn AND you can NOT record new odds. Is this the case?

[whoneedsrio]

Re: Help gathering data

Thanks Rio, That would do the trick but unfortunately when I use Timeform it does not list any non-runners. See below for the 14:40 as displayed on Timeform free. Are you a paid timeform subscriber Rio? This may explain the missing information. Cheers

No I don't subcribe to Timeform so it can't be that. Looking at the screenshot you've posted it says at the top, View: AUS&NZ. I was wondering if it was that but when I change to that from GB&IRE it still shows that no3 Claude Greenwood was taken out but now calls it a scratching instead of a non runner. Rio.

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

With the R4' date=' it does depend on which bookie you place the bet with dont forget, if a horse was 4/1 at say Hills the R4 would be 20p, if the same horse was 9/2 at Ladbrokes it would be a 15p R4, so not sure if it can ever be accurate. Obviously R4's on SP's would be the same but this only happens when a horse gets withdrawn at the start and no time for a new market to be formed.[/quote'] I'll use the table you posted previously as my baseline. That will give a close enough indicator of R4 reduction. Just a matter of finding the relevant odds for non-runners/withdrawals. As Hills dont accept Australian punters I haven't looked at their site, so i'll have a look, thank you. Ah.. the holy grail would be nice and yes I don't think i'll find it either but if I can use 2 resources to get the info then that will suffice. Anymore than that and it may be too time consuming.

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

Please don't fall into the trap that some people fall into when gathering data.

Ah yes. I'm fully aware how hard it can be to match odds that are rapidly falling. Hence why I take my hat off to people that can pull a profit from BSP or even worse ISP. Generally speaking I try and base my strategies on BSP and ISP figures. Therefore if I manage to get a high price on a winner then that is a bonus. Cheers, Karijini

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

The only reason that the info "30p reduction on bets placed between ... and ... " is needed is when: 1. you have placed bets at this period and your bet didn't win. Do you have such bets? 2. You recorded horses odds before that period, a horse withdrawn AND you can NOT record new odds. Is this the case?

1. Yes this can be the case. I keep a tally of potential profits from a bet so that I may lay off a portion or all of it on Betfair if required without going into negative liability. For example a stake of 10 on a 4/1 has potential profit of 40 however after an R4 of 25% this is now 30. If the selection is now 2/1 I know that I can lay off up to 15 (equal to a liability of 30) to be in a neutral position. 2. New odds do not account for its price drifting or shortening. So odds of 10/1 the night before may be 4/1 in the morning and then be 3/1 after an R4 pre off. I want to account for a bet placed at 10/1 and the effect of any R4's on it. Since I work alot with early pricing, these can change significantly by race time. One example of this in practice is if that 10/1 placed and I had a win bet, how would have I done if I placed an E/W instead?

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

No I don't subcribe to Timeform so it can't be that. Looking at the screenshot you've posted it says at the top, View: AUS&NZ. I was wondering if it was that but when I change to that from GB&IRE it still shows that no3 Claude Greenwood was taken out but now calls it a scratching instead of a non runner.

Yeah I thought about that too and had similar results. It just seems to change terminology. For some reason it does not display these for me, I'll try using a UK proxy to see if accessing the site from Australia alters the information displayed. I'll contact Betfair as well to see what they say. If possible can you post or PM me a screenshot? Thanks, Karijini

[Karijini]

Re: Help gathering data

I'll try using a UK proxy to see if accessing the site from Australia alters the information displayed.

And so I have my answer. The post below is accessing the same information but via a UK proxy and has a completely different layout with the non-runner information that is not displayed for me in Australia. Thanks for your help Rio.