Raising on the Button (and firing back)

[muttley]

I know I should be trying to steal blinds from on the button with a wide range of hands, but what sort of hands are good enough to fire back with from the BB? I find it hard to reraise with hands like J,9 even when the dealer has already stolen a few blinds from me. Is it mostly judgement? I'm most likely to fold in 8/9 handed ring games or early stages of a tournament. Need advice on how to grow some balls,(bigger ones, anyway).

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) its mostly judgement but if you think the're stealing it doesnt really matter what you push back with;)

[robilaruk]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) I think this is one of the best questions anyone can ask, simply because I don't think anyone can give you any kind of definitive answer except, 'it depends on the situation'. for instance: Is the SB & BB tight, then you can raise any two cards Is the button weak/loose on your BB, then you can resteal with any two cards What happens when that is not the case is pure judgement and skill, something that comes with experience. Excellent question :ok Damo

[sugleh]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) There is a great discussion in Moshman's SNG book about stealing and restealing. The restealing discussion applies very well also to MTTs. In short, my interpretation is that you need to estimate if the raiser is stealing or raising for value. This can be estimated by two things: a) is the raiser passive or aggressive

• a passive raiser is almost always raising for value (they would limp if the have a mediocre hand)
• an aggressive raiser could both be stealing and raising for value

b) in which position is the raiser

• the later the position of an aggressive raiser the more likely he is to be stealing
• a raise from early position is almost always for value

By using this it is possible to "estimate" if the raise is a steal raise or a value raise. No exact science of course. I know the original question concerned only raises from the button but this is a great topic and I wanted to be more general.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back)

I know I should be trying to steal blinds from on the button with a wide range of hands, but what sort of hands are good enough to fire back with from the BB? I find it hard to reraise with hands like J,9 even when the dealer has already stolen a few blinds from me. Is it mostly judgement? I'm most likely to fold in 8/9 handed ring games or early stages of a tournament. Need advice on how to grow some balls,(bigger ones, anyway).

one thing i would say is making a reraise from the bb is less worth it in the early levels anyway,especially as it sounds like you play fairly tight. 1 you can get caught up in a big pot when the original gain is minimal(after all you are reraising to steal preferably, not play a pot out of poss) 2 your image hasnt been established for the other players yet,so your re-raise may not get respect. so i dont mind folding down my bb for the first few levels if i'm trying to cultivate a tight image. that way the button gets to think he can steal a lot:ok so they start throwing more chips at me but also will usually give my reraise a lot of respect,so you steal some pretty decent pots when the blinds are up and you need some chips. by then doing this you should also start to slow down their attacks on your blinds as they will start to get more wary about you;).that is obviously a good thing as well once the blinds get up ,as a walk can be crucial at that point. this is sort of the essence of changing gears during a tourney i think,using the previous play as a guide how to keep stepping up and down how aggressive your gonna be. if on the other hand you want to play loose then loads of reraises are good, but you have to play your monster hands the same way so you get maximum value out of them when you get them:ok

[muttley]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back)

I know the original question concerned only raises from the button but this is a great topic and I wanted to be more general.

Please do. This is very helpful. Obviously a raise from early position is unlikely to be a steal, but I would like to know about stealing from the button AND the position immediately before the button.

[muttley]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back)

one thing i would say is making a reraise from the bb is less worth it in the early levels anyway,especially as it sounds like you play fairly tight. 1 you can get caught up in a big pot when the original gain is minimal(after all you are reraising to steal preferably, not play a pot out of poss) 2 your image hasnt been established for the other players yet,so your re-raise may not get respect. so i dont mind folding down my bb for the first few levels if i'm trying to cultivate a tight image.

Good point. But wouldn't this be a good place to establish that you won't be bullied, and will defend your blinds. If the aggressor is stealing then he will be reluctant to do so in future, and if he has a genuine hand you can lay it down for minimal cost.

[AJ]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back)

one thing i would say is making a reraise from the bb is less worth it in the early levels anyway,especially as it sounds like you play fairly tight. 1 you can get caught up in a big pot when the original gain is minimal(after all you are reraising to steal preferably, not play a pot out of poss) 2 your image hasnt been established for the other players yet,so your re-raise may not get respect. so i dont mind folding down my bb for the first few levels if i'm trying to cultivate a tight image. that way the button gets to think he can steal a lot:ok so they start throwing more chips at me but also will usually give my reraise a lot of respect,so you steal some pretty decent pots when the blinds are up and you need some chips. by then doing this you should also start to slow down their attacks on your blinds as they will start to get more wary about you;).that is obviously a good thing as well once the blinds get up ,as a walk can be crucial at that point. this is sort of the essence of changing gears during a tourney i think,using the previous play as a guide how to keep stepping up and down how aggressive your gonna be. if on the other hand you want to play loose then loads of reraises are good, but you have to play your monster hands the same way so you get maximum value out of them when you get them:ok

:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap Excellent post

[Blatch]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) Raising from the button is not just about nicking blinds, its about playing the hand in position for the whole hand. Its such a huge advantage.

[TopGun]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) nice posts guys, thx

[george2loose]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) shove with 5 7 of spades upward if its me or Blatch raising on the button

[Nade]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) In short handed cash games there's a lot of 'paranoia' around battling with the blinds. The button raiser thinks the blinds are making a move and likewise the blinds think the button is making a move so there's a tonne of interesting situations that come up. It's always best to balance your re-raising ranges so the opponents aren't able to narrow your range down pre and post flop. This means re-raising with any pair, suited connectors, big hands, trash etc. But it should be done calculatedly with good thought thinking about opponents, stack sizes, etc. Overall i'd say it's best to let your opponents know you're not just playing abc and re-raise them whenever it feels right. They'll be less inclined to battle with someone who isn't a pushover and so you can take advantage. The general feeling is to not get over fancy battling in and out of the blinds and 'out level' yourself into making fancy plays, but we still all do it. Re-raising with non dominated hands like 89s, T9s etc. some would even go as low as 56s if they're really aggro, is something to consider if you want to get over aggro. The reason people prefer to re-raise with these hands is they're unlikely to be called by hands that dominate them like AJ or KJ, QJ etc. To make it a successful play though re-raising with say 89s in the BB should be done rarely. In fact i don't advocate it generally but if you want to get fancy then it's worth considering.

[Blatch]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back)

shove with 5 7 of spades upward if its me or Blatch raising on the button

5 7 soooooted champ? Are yu implying your tightening your range and therefore players need to tigheten theirs on the BB?

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back)

Good point. But wouldn't this be a good place to establish that you won't be bullied' date=' and will defend your blinds. If the aggressor is stealing then he will be reluctant to do so in future, and if he has a genuine hand you can lay it down for minimal cost.[/quote'] yes it is a good time to start to accumulate chips but not while risking your tourney to do it:ok if you make a decent start get some decent cards and its a tight table then its good to be aggressive but theres no point just throwing money at a loose table when there's no need ,you get knocked early out too many times. also if its at the start of a tourney you have no info on the rest of the table(unless its a game you play in regularly),so your making descisions in the dark a lot of the time.i would much rather spend the first level or two watching what everyone else is doing if i'm getting a load of rags rather than getting into tricky spots against opponents i don't know. this is especially true of deepstack games but even stts give you easy enough to almost sit out the first 2 levels and barely notice it. another reason i like to wait a little is the shorter handed it gets the more aggression you need .also being aggressive around the bubble on an stt usually pays off , with a tight image you will get very few calls if you push as long as you keep your stack big enough to scare an opponent even after a raise. yes i'd love to be on the bubble with a big stack but an ultra tight image is the next best thing;) as for what to raise with on the button looks like im in george and blatches 57 suited brigade:ok

[Blatch]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) I think the bubble is starting to get over rated. everyone knows hoiw everyone plays it now

[george2loose]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back)

I think the bubble is starting to get over rated. everyone knows hoiw everyone plays it now

+1

[ELCAKER]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) So many factors to take into consideration...chip stacks...what level are we at....what's the buy-in...could a player be tilting? Perhaps most importantly for me, player image. If you have had the opportunity to look at the players on your table then you can have a better idea of when to play back, certainly in the mid-stages of a tourney. If you are new to a table or haven't had the chance to assimilate information then I am less likely to start making outragous plays. Often if someone bluffs me, then so be it, it's going to happen from time to time.

[seanfaz]

Re: Raising on the Button (and firing back) You need to mix re-steals into your play not only for accumulation, but also to vary your play and then you are more likely to get your big hands paid off.