The Razz Thread....

[msaban]

Since playing the WCOOP Razz event last month I have rekindled my love affair with the game of Razz, this has coincided with the fact that I found I was very highly placed on the pokerdb rankings in the first few months of 2007, so since the 23rd Sept 08 I have been playing on a regular basis in an attempt to climb back up that ladder and rescue a pretty miserable poker year by winning a few bucks. So in that last week September I managed to climb upto 33rd in the $0-10 tournament range, 299th in the $11-50 tournament range and 534th in the $50 + tournament range. These ranks are taken from all Razz tournament results recorded by pokerdb, this site covers pokerstars, fulltilt, bodog, absolute, party and maybe a few others, although I'm only aware of Razz games on stars and tilt. Anyway, I'm looking to build on last months results and climb that ladder to get to a higher position. However this is not meant to be a brag post, I'm hoping to encourage people to discuss the game further,which I feel is possibly the least spoken about variant which in turn may lead to us sharpening our skills further. So anything Razz lets bang it in here, hands, strategies, tournaments, odds, cash games, players to avoid, players to chase, results... whatever Lets get razztastic :)

[GaF]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Nice one mike :ok I havent played that much Razz however from what I have played, it seems a very very simple game - is that fair? If it is, then the impression I have is that there are more obviously "right" and "wrong" answers than in other variants - if that is the case, then once you get beyond the micro stakes, how would you get an edge? I was also thinking about it when I posted my bots thread - if the game is that simple, then wouldn't it be completely (and pretty easily) beatable by computers? It's limit. There are no pairs/trips/full houses/straights/flushes to worry about and more known cards than in holdem - I'm struggling to see how you can get an edge over mathematical players, and moreso, against bots.... If you're making money at it (it sounds like you are :ok) - I'm obviously wrong :ok but I'm really struggling to see where you can get an edge from against (competent) opponents :unsure

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Daily Razz Tournaments on Stars (Listed in Pokerstars server time ) 01.45 - $5 + 0.50 04.45 - $8 + 0.80 07.45 - $20 + 2 10.45 - $3 + 0.30 13.45 - $15 + 1.50 16.45 - $10 + 1 19.45 - $11 - $1K GTD 22.45 - $1 + 0.10 Sundays Only 13.45 - $200 + 15 - $5K GTD

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Cheers for the response GAF. Yes in my opinion its a very simple game, however it seems ( on stars at least ) that its the same group of players who are regularly making the money, so why is this ? you can't rely on the cards all the time, so maybe its the betting with a good hand, or only playing certain hands from certain positions. Its possible there one right way of playing and these guys have mastered it. Hopefully we can work it.

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Daily Razz Tournaments on Full Tilt ( Listed in Full Tilt Server Time ) 06:00 - $1.50 + 0.50 09.45 - $5 + 0.50 13.45 - $10 + 1 20.15 - $24 + 2 21.40 - $100 Freeroll 21.45 - $5 + 0.50

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Cash Games - Pokerstars Regular Tables 0.04/0.08 0.10/0.20 0.25/0.50 0.50/1.00 1/2 2/4 3/6 5/10 10/20 30/60 Full Tilt Regular Tables 0.25/0.50 0.50 / 1 1/2 2/4 3/6 5/10 8/16 10/20 15/30 20/40 30/60 50/100 100/200 200/400 300/600 500/1000 1000/2000 2000/4000

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... A couple of strategy guides worth reading This one on a website called poker-strategy.org http://www.poker-strategy.org/default.aspx?tabid=211 This one on the inside poker /pokerplayer site http://www.insidepokermag.co.uk/poker/variants/2560/poker_strategy.html

[voiceofjoe]

Re: The Razz Thread.... And a blog you that may be useful http://therazzchallenge.blogspot.com/

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Cheers Martyn. This is written by the guy who recently published a book on razz strategy, I'm hoping to get hold of a copy soon.

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... ok, so typically since starting this thread my tourament results have gone out of the window, fortunately I've managed to claim back the buyins on the cash tables. I've played all levels on stars up to the 3/6 level, but currently find I'm comftable getting my buyins back fairly quickly at the 0.50/1 level playing a couple of tables at once. At this level there is a lot of bad players who wont put a hand down and will chase all the way to 7th, sometimes they catch sometimes not. The difficultly is to not get dragged to that level but remain patient and only keep putting money in the pot if its likely you can win. Traditionally I'm not a cash table player but a tournament player, this has come from I believe a fear of losing all my cash in one go at NLHE ( I struggled to play tiny levels as couldt take the small pots seriously but never had the correct bankroll management to play higher ) and badly chasing and getting stung at PLO H/L ( losing about £2K in a 12 our session earlier in the year ) Anyway I now feel that I can win on the cash tables in this variant, but so far have only be staying on to get my tourney buyins back, so will be looking at ways in which I win more, whether this means playing for longer or opening more tables I'm not sure yet. Also I wonder if I should start investing in some cash game tools such as poker tracker, and wonder if it supports razz - can anyone advise.??

[GaF]

Re: The Razz Thread.... PokerTracker Stud works for Razz. I cannot advise how useful/helpful it is, but imagine less so than NLHE (though for the investment imagine it's worth it) - try it free for 1000 hands I think. :ok

[GaF]

Re: The Razz Thread.... The HUDs dont work though ;) But you can have a window open (the gametime window - not the gametime+ hud) which will autorefresh.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: The Razz Thread....

PokerTracker Stud works for Razz. I cannot advise how useful/helpful it is, but imagine less so than NLHE (though for the investment imagine it's worth it) - try it free for 1000 hands I think. :ok

I tried this and couldn't get it to import the Poker Stars HH. I would check and see if its still supported in terms of new versions, and updates when the sites alter their Hand History files. I got the impression it wasn't.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: The Razz Thread....

Anyway I now feel that I can win on the cash tables in this variant' date=' but so far have only be staying on to get my tourney buyins back, so will be looking at ways in which I win more, [/quote'] I would definitely advise giving the Cash HORSE games a go at this level - (although Multi Tabling is a nightmare) - the variance in the games stops you getting bored and the level of play (particuarly in Razz) is very poor

[GaF]

Re: The Razz Thread.... I'd be shocked if they werent supporting latest Stars HH very rapidly in this - playing HU at the moment - will check out the forum after :ok

[ubermonkey1]

Re: The Razz Thread.... i have stud tracker and that works ok on stars:ok

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Here's a bit of a cooler hand from a tournament I just went out in, I'll try and explain my thoughts in bold, even if nobody else reads it, it will be useful for me, however all comments welcome. PokerStars Game #21036893206: Tournament #112321543, $10+$1 Razz Limit - Level VII (300/600) - 2008/10/08 18:22:35 ET Table '112321543 5' 8-max Seat 1: Al04 (4985 in chips) <- Dont know much about this guy Seat 2: fluenesherre (4625 in chips) <- Dont know much about this guy Seat 3: Steeltrrble (7565 in chips) <- No 1 in pokerdb rankings for Sept, played with this guy on loads of occassions and a very solid player, have a lot of respect for his game Seat 5: mikesaban (3850 in chips) Seat 6: Dangaul (2520 in chips) <- Dont know much about this guy Seat 7: coupdegrace (3055 in chips) <- A tournament regular often still in the later stages of the tournament, only enters pots with 3 low cards Seat 8: ViciousBunny (670 in chips) <- From what I've seen a bit of a loose player Al04: posts the ante 30 fluenesherre: posts the ante 30 Steeltrrble: posts the ante 30 mikesaban: posts the ante 30 Dangaul: posts the ante 30 coupdegrace: posts the ante 30 ViciousBunny: posts the ante 30 *** 3rd STREET *** Dealt to Al04 [5d] Dealt to fluenesherre [Ah] Dealt to Steeltrrble [Ad] Dealt to mikesaban [2h 5h 6c] Dealt to Dangaul [4c] Dealt to coupdegrace [Kc] Dealt to ViciousBunny [6d] Ok straight away I can see that 3 of my outs are dead, Ah Ad and 4c, thats fine as I have cards that also match with the 5 & 6. I'm going to see 4th but not get involved with any jamming wars before 4th. coupdegrace: brings in for 90 ViciousBunny said, "woulda been toast with bet" ViciousBunny: folds Al04: folds fluenesherre: calls 90 Steeltrrble said, "had 85321 after 5" Steeltrrble: calls 90 mikesaban: calls 90 Dangaul: calls 90 *** 4th STREET *** Dealt to fluenesherre [Ah] [Qh] Dealt to Steeltrrble [Ad] [3d] Dealt to mikesaban [2h 5h 6c] [Ac] Dealt to Dangaul [4c] [Jc] Dealt to coupdegrace [Kc] [3s] Steeltrrble: checks mikesaban: bets 300 Dangaul: folds coupdegrace: folds fluenesherre: folds Steeltrrble: calls 300 Very pleased I've hit the Ace, but gutted that 2 more outs have gone with the 3s. Ive got to believe I now have the best hand currently or am drawing to it. I'm betting in a hope to thin the field and hope to get down to heads up now. *** 5th STREET *** Dealt to Steeltrrble [Ad 3d] [4h] Dealt to mikesaban [2h 5h 6c Ac] [8s] Steeltrrble: bets 600 ViciousBunny said, "knew I was against 2 nice ones" mikesaban: calls 600 SO the 8 gives me a made hand, but I'm worried about the 4 Steel as hit. I dont think he has a 2 & a 5 in the hole as he would have raised on 3rd street, but 5 & a 6, or 2 & 6 or 2& 7 is a possibility. He has to raise to represent the stronger hand, but I'm unsure where I am so after some time I call to see if my hand improves. *** 6th STREET *** Dealt to Steeltrrble [Ad 3d 4h] [Kd] Dealt to mikesaban [2h 5h 6c Ac 8s] [6h] Steeltrrble: checks mikesaban: checks Steel thinks for a while and checks, this hasnt changed anything, I'm only beating anything worse than 8-7 in the hole, so he could be reeling me in for an extra bet. I just check. *** RIVER *** Dealt to mikesaban [2h 5h 6c Ac 8s 6h] [4s] Steeltrrble: bets 600 Steel bets out pretty quickly here, but the 4 Ive hit as give me an excellent hand too - A2456, there is only two hands that can beat me A2345 and A2346, I think I'm in front,I ask the question mikesaban: raises 600 to 1200 and get the response straight away Steeltrrble: raises 600 to 1800 Time bank runs almost all the way down, I'm very close to folding, but can't do it, I'm too curious mikesaban: calls 600 *** SHOW DOWN *** Steeltrrble: shows [2c Ks Ad 3d 4h Kd 5c] (Lo: 5,4,3,2,A) mikesaban: shows [2h 5h 6c Ac 8s 6h 4s] (Lo: 6,5,4,2,A) Steeltrrble collected 6060 from pot bugger I gave him too much credit for his hole cards, which stopped me bettig on 6th however I asked Steel if he would have folded the wheel draw with his KK and he responded no, so maybe I saved myself a bet. The reraise on 7th, I thought when I hit the 4 I was in front, I considered he had a 2 or a 5 in the hole, but knew the odds weren't in his favour for hitting the other one on 7th. His re-reraise told me he had the wheel, but I had to see it. This effectively ended my tournament and I went out in 21st with the top 8 paying Could I have played this hand better ?

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... wow I wrote the last post and during that time, lots of activity, will look into the pokertracker stud when I dont have to get up so early in the morning - cheers

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... so I managed to download the PokerTracker Stud , so many questions now, but the first one is regarding the autorate rules. Does anyone know of anywhere that I can import some decent rules ?

[ubermonkey1]

Re: The Razz Thread....

so I managed to download the PokerTracker Stud , so many questions now, but the first one is regarding the autorate rules. Does anyone know of anywhere that I can import some decent rules ?

now that i dont know:\ i gotta admit they seem to almost be set to nlh levels as my stud and omaha tracker both seem to peg most players as loose aggressive,or maybe its my style causing it:lol

[GaF]

Re: The Razz Thread.... The guy who did the software admitted to not playing the games and so not setting that sensible rules - that was quite a while ago and I dont know if it's changed, but from what you're saying it sounds not. Bet-the-pot had a good set of NLHE autorate rules, but I've never seen any stud/razz ones I'm afraid....

[ubermonkey1]

Re: The Razz Thread.... dont think you could have played the hand above any better really:ok although you could have bet 6th i would guess he would have called you as he's got 11 possible outs if your 8 lo+you might be bluffin ,also as you say the check might be to fish you into a bet so it's a tricky one either way. i cant see many people folding on 7th ,with 600 to call and a lot in the pot it's very hard to put down,even if you know your opponent knows that;) very unlucky really and just one of those hands that plays itself out :\

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... searched for a while on rules but without success, so will have to have a play around and try to define some. I think that Amount won, BB/100, Went to show down, W$ at Show Down and VP$IP are the key components to play around with.

[msaban]

Re: The Razz Thread.... Bought the book " Play Razz Poker To Win" by Mitchell Cogert the other day, read it cover to cover in about an hour, so not very thick,got some interesting concepts but I felt that it didnt really teach me anything. Saying that I'm bubbling for fun in tournaments at the minute and can't cash for the life of me, so maybe I need to read it again. The problem with tournament poker is that your always up against the variance, in NLHE you can combat this by playing many tournaments at once, if you can cash in say 3 out of every 10 you probably going to be ahead, with razz they ( tournaments ) are so few and far between that too play 10 is going to take several days, so the bad run appears to last so much longer.