Tennis rating/info/assessment system

[Datapunter]

Anyone up for creating a Tennis info system ? Something that allows us to measure up a match or tournament, could be a rating system, could be for straight betting or to support trading strategies. Obviously want to end up with something that indicates value. My personal contribution to the team effort will be data collection. Any info out there that we need, i'll lay my hands on it somehow and make it available through databases. (or excel and stuff) Would like others involved for ideas, testing, backtesting, bit of programming maybe. Open for anything at the moment. Has to be with the understanding that anything we can come up with that's usefull for a wide audiance somehow gets posted here on PL. :ok

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system Definately:ok

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system Mr I .... you .... really ..... well what a surprise :lol

[kevsul]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

Mr I .... you .... really ..... well what a surprise :lol

I was shocked also DP. Anyway don't know much about the players, sometimes watch the game. If there is anything I could do to help let me know, Most avaiable time for me would be after 11.00 pm But can sometimes help on days off

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system Not looking for help kev, looking for people who are totally into Tennis and are bursting with ideas but somehow don't know, or have the time, to turn those ideas in profit. A bit of teamwork can go a very long way. personally, i can get my hands on just about any info that's out there but once i got it i just don't have the time to dig into it :\ p.s. you don't need to have successfull ideas, just ideas and the willingness to make a effort to follow up and find out if they are potentially successfull.

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system I have the ability and also now the time, post wedding, to build a statistical model which will tell you the variables that contribute to one person winning over another. I had a go on my own and after a couple of hundred bets my Yield was -1%. Annoyingly close. The sort of thing I would look to do with the data is like the stuff I was doing with the premier league. I used to be PlopPlop around here for anyone that remembers. I've some very powerful statistical software at my disposal. As an idea my list of variables in my previous attempt was: MATCH_REF ATP COUNTRY LOCATION TOURNAMENT DATE SERIES COURT SURFACE ROUND BEST OF PLY1 PLY2 RANK_PLY1 RANK_PLY2 PTS_PLY1 PTS_PLY2 1_PLY1 1_PLY2 2_PLY1 2_PLY2 3_PLY1 3_PLY2 4_PLY1 4_PLY2 5_PLY1 5_PLY2 SETS_PLY1 SETS_PLY2 COMMENT B365_PLY1 B365_PLY2 CB_PLY1 CB_PLY2 EX_PLY1 EX_PLY2 GB_PLY1 GB_PLY2 IW_PLY1 IW_PLY2 PS_PLY1 PS_PLY2 SB_PLY1 SB_PLY2 B&W_PLY1 B&W_PLY2 UB_PLY1 UB_PLY2 NATIONALITY_PLY1 NATIONALITY_PLY2 AGE_IN_DAYS_PLY1 AGE_IN_DAYS_PLY2 PLAYING_IN_HOME_COUNTRY_PLY1 PLAYING_IN_HOME_COUNTRY_PLY2 TENNIS_CORNER_ID_PLY1 TENNIS_CORNER_ID_PLY2 H2H TENNIS CORNER URL MAX_ODDS_PLY1 MAX_ODDS_PLY2 H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY1 AVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_SET_PLY1 AVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 3SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 5SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY2 AVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_SET_PLY2 AVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 3SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 5SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 SURFACE_H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_G_PER_SET_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACESETTIEBREAK_PLY1 SURFACE3SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 SURFACE5SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 SURFACE_H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACESETTIEBREAK_PLY2 SURFACE3SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 SURFACE5SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 NO_H2HS DAYS_SINCE_LAST_H2H NO_SURFACE_H2HS DAYS_SINCE_LAST_SURFACE_H2H H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY1 H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY2 H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY1 H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY2 SURFACE_H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY1 SURFACE_H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY2 SURFACE_H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY1 SURFACE_H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY2 NO_3SET_MATCHES NO_5_SET_MATCHES SURFACE_3SET_MATCHES SURFACE_5SET_MATCHES PLY1_CHANGE IN RANK (-1 MONTH) PLY1_CHANGE IN RANK (-2 MONTHS) PLY1_CHANGE IN RANK (-6 MONTHS) PLY1_CHANGE IN RANK (-12 MONTHS) PLY2_CHANGE IN RANK (-1 MONTH) PLY2_CHANGE IN RANK (-2 MONTHS) PLY2_CHANGE IN RANK (-6 MONTHS) PLY2_CHANGE IN RANK (-12 MONTHS) WINNER This would also give me a good excuse to get back into the groove of things and get a presence back on PL. Let me know if this assistance is what you are after............

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

-1%. Annoyingly close

indeed :sad from an initial glance at that list of data it seems you've only looked at match results, have you done anything with player stats like right-handed vs left-handed, 1st serve% , aces, double faults, stuff like that ? I think we should be able to come up with some stuff when we stick our head together :ok

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system I'd be up for the statistical stuff:ok. I've wanted to do that for a long time I just don't have any data:sad

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

indeed :sad from an initial glance at that list of data it seems you've only looked at match results, have you done anything with player stats like right-handed vs left-handed, 1st serve% , aces, double faults, stuff like that ? I think we should be able to come up with some stuff when we stick our head together :ok

Indeed it was annoying!!! I got a bit distracted from it all I think and left it behind. I have gathered the stats like you see here: http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/players/playerprofiles/popMatchStats.asp?sd=Singles&trnnum=339&trnyear=2000&rnd=3&plyr=D198 for all the 21,587 matches I have in my data. I extracted: PLY1_ACES PLY1_DOUBLE_FAULTS PLY1_1ST_SERVE_PCT PLY1_PCT_1ST_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_2ND_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_BREAK_PTS_SAVED PLY1_SERVICE_GAMES_PLYD PLY1_PCT_1ST_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_2ND_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_BREAK_PTS_WON PLY1_RETURN_GAMES_PLYD PLY1_PCT_TOT_SERVICE_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_TOT_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_TOT_PTS_WON PLY2_ACES PLY2_DOUBLE_FAULTS PLY2_1ST_SERVE_PCT PLY2_PCT_1ST_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_2ND_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_BREAK_PTS_SAVED PLY2_SERVICE_GAMES_PLYD PLY2_PCT_1ST_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_2ND_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_BREAK_PTS_WON PLY2_RETURN_GAMES_PLYD PLY2_PCT_TOT_SERVICE_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_TOT_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_TOT_PTS_WON COURT_MINS with the hope of turning it in to something interesting. I also collated the players performance in the tournament for the past 5 years. The hope and expectation was that players try harder when they are defending ATP points, I assume you are aware of how the points work etc in that you have to equal or better your performance in a certain number of tournaments over last year to improve the points gained. It is of course all relative to the other players. I've no idea why I never pumped this through some software to see if it had any relevance!!!! My feelings i think at the time were that the holy grail was performance within the tournament itself. You always hear the pro's talking about coming out of a 5-setter the day before and being tired the next day when they lose to some nobody. Inter tournament data isn't readily available from what I can remeber. ATP tennis.com only updates once the tournament is finished. This data could still be indicative though. The other thing I struggled with as well was, and they have to be due to their presictive power, bookmakers odds. I found Centrebet to have the most predicitve odds out there but being an aussie company they updated their odds at times that didn't suit me. In addition to this as well, tennis happens all over the world so start times are hard to deal with too. I'm sounding a bit doomsday I know but I think I found the constantly updating figures and manually typing in bookies odds a little too big an overhead. Which is maybe where you guys come in. To end on a bright note - I think we could get there - 2 or more heads is better than 1. I'm up for this as my betting has taken a back seat really which is a shame. Laterly I have been watching the races with Bet Angel Basic open and backing the horses in running I think are going to win it. Not always intellectually satisfying...........especially when it goes wrong.....:cry I'd like to get in to trading but I sadly have a day job when most of the fun happens.

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

Inter tournament data isn't readily available

no it isn't, nod nod, wink wink, know what i mean, eh eh :lol

[Sgt.Sunshine]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system Like Matthew I amassed a huge dataset; I matched up the results from Tennis-Data to the ATP matchstats going back to 2001. I spent far too long trying to analyse it and came up with an amalgamation of about 15 different systems with a return of around 5% (based on odds at the start of the match). It also took too long to keep up to date both between and within tournaments, and I also found it frutstrating and time consuming trying to get the odds I wanted. In the end I have given up for now as the returns weren't worth it for the time input. My analyses were probably not sound enough though, so I would be interested in getting involved in a system collaboration as I still feel there is some money hidden in all the data! Not much free time though, but I would be happy to input when and where I can. My general feeling is that it is very difficult to make decent money on tennis using the usual form-type of analysis (although to counter this you can get decent sized bets at Pinnacle or BF), but the guys that seem to do well are those that know about match-ups of styles, like Mr.I and several others (also on other forums). I always thought that if you could combine both approaches, for example by quantifying player "styles" from there match stats, you might get a decent edge.

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

It also took too long to keep up to date both between and within tournaments, and I also found it frutstrating and time consuming trying to get the odds I wanted.

For me too the time factor is big issue. Collecting data and keeping that data up-to-date can be done automatically, once running the only human intervention is when for some reason the collection program crashes. Goes for results, stats and odds. Sounds like the first thing we need is a data-dictionary describing all the data involved and then a centralised database. Once we got that in place we can run some research. I'm pretty confident i can create some stuff to keep everything up-to-date automatically.

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

no it isn't, nod nod, wink wink, know what i mean, eh eh :lol

I'm not sure I follow. Automation is key in my book. It's all about good sources. Where should we start on this? Are we starting from scratch? - Datapunter - if time is an issue are you really able to create, update and maintain something that automatically scrapes data from the web? Do we have any more volunteers out there? - Do we think that the handful we have already is enough.

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

I'm not sure I follow.

It looks like the only place where data on a running tournament can be found is the ATP scoreboard. No website has the data until after a tournament is over. So if you're looking at the stats on the players in the final the view is distorted because the last 4-5 matches are missing from the data. Considering the ATP scoreboard is a flash application the data cannot be retrieved using conventional methods. But some of us are a little more creative than others, that's all.

Are we starting from scratch? - Datapunter - if time is an issue are you really able to create, update and maintain something that automatically scrapes data from the web?

Yes, it's one of my main activities these days. Got a collection of programs that do data-collecting so Tennis is just one in a series of sports i'm collecting data on. I'll have a look for a MySQL database on one of my servers that we can access as a group. Then we can fill that with the collections we already have. That should be enough to do some research on. When we got a more clear picture on what data we would actually need to be up-to-date and how fast i'll look into getting that done.

[Sgt.Sunshine]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system I ended up coding a semi-transparent window that sat on top of the ATP scoreboard with boxes over the figures I wanted. It took about 15 mins per day to keep up to date. It would be possible to speed it up by using a character recognition procedure I guess?

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system This seems to have stalled a little.......people still want to do this? I'll post a couple of useful reference posts for players / tournaments etc.

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system PLAYER NAME......ATP TENNIS ID Abdulla M.............A618 Abel M................A391 Acasuso J.............A389 Adaktusson J..........A305 Agaev E...............A310 Agassi A..............A092 Agenor R..............A006 Ager J................A404 Aguilar J.............A457 Al Ghareeb M..........G531 Al Khulaifi N.G.......A244 Alami K...............A203 Albert M..............A467 Aldi F................A340 Allegro Y.............A293 Almagro N.............A479 Alonso J..............A272 Alvarez E.............A190 Alves T...............A410 Amritraj P............A487 Ancic M...............A385 Andersen J.F..........A276 Andersson H...........A280 Andreev I.............A511 Andujar P.............A596 Aranguren J.M.........A502 Arazi H...............A226 Armando H.............A311 Arnold L..............A228 Arquez P..............A318 Arthurs W.............A202 Ascione T.............A356 Auckland J............A373 Ayala D...............A316 Azzaro L..............A303 Baccanello P..........B681 Bachelot J.F..........B562 Bachinger M...........BC65 Baghdatis M...........B837 Bahrouzyan O..........A499 Baker B...............BA23 Baker J...............BA53 Balcells J............B487 Balleret B............B946 Bastl G...............B503 Beck A................BA86 Beck K................B804 Becker B..............B896 Behr N................B440 Behrend T.............B545 Behrmann M............BB02 Belal C...............B670 Belic L...............BD05 Benneteau J...........B747 Berasategui A.........B428 Berdych T.............BA47 Berlocq C.............B884 Berrer M..............B678 Bester P..............BC68 Bhupathi M............B471 Bjorkman J............B446 Black B...............B397 Black W...............B499 Blake J...............B676 Blake T...............B619 Blanco G..............B518 Bloomfield R..........B977 Boeker M..............B699 Bogdanovic A..........B929 Bogomolov Jr..A.......B842 Bohaboy D.............B841 Bohane A..............B898 Bohli S...............B752 Bolelli S.............BA98 Bopanna R.............B757 Boruszewski J.........B607 Bourgeois L...........B600 Boutter J.............B599 Bower J...............B645 Bozic I...............B414 Bozoljac I............BA57 Braasch K.............B305 Bracciali D...........B570 Braga P...............B478 Brands D..............BC72 Brasington J..........B660 Breen M...............B585 Brown D...............BA65 Browne F..............B516 Bruguera S............B350 Bryan B...............B588 Bryan M...............B589 Brzezicki J.P.........B764 Burgsmuller L.........B484 Burniol G.............B975 Burrieza O............B517 Cabello F.............C457 Cadart R..............C463 Cakl T................C585 Calatrava A...........C361 Caldwell D............C407 Calleri A.............C478 Canas G...............C433 Capalik K.............C522 Capdeville P..........C634 Caratti C.............C270 Carlsen K.............C328 Carlson A.............C805 Carraz G..............C400 Carretero R...........C383 Cermak F..............C445 Chadaj A..............C660 Chaen T...............C371 Chaki R...............C663 Chang M...............C274 Chardy J..............CA12 Charpentier M.........C375 Chela J.I.............C514 Chen T................C813 Cherkasov A...........C260 Childs L..............C627 Chiudinelli M.........C582 Cilic M...............C977 Cipolla F.............C723 Clavet F..............C252 Clayton A.............C924 Clemens T.............C611 Clement A.............C487 Cobolli S.............C447 Coetzee J.............C493 Condor F..............C750 Cook L................C768 Coria G...............C524 Corretja A............C344 Cortes J..............C261 Costa A...............C378 Costa F...............C397 Courier J.............C243 Coutelot N............C476 Couto E...............C336 Cowan B...............C387 Crabb J...............G386 Craca M...............C439 Crivoi V..............C856 Cuadrado C............C556 Dabrowski B...........D239 Dailey Z..............D677 Damm M................D214 Dancevic F............D499 Daniel M..............D339 Darcis S..............D632 Davletshin V..........D519 Davydenko N...........D402 De Bakker T...........D776 de Chaunac S..........D351 de Voest R............D424 Del Potro J.M.........D683 Delfino M.............D347 Delgado J.............D289 Delgado R.............D316 Delic A...............D438 DellAcqua M...........D361 Dent T................D362 Derepasko A...........D359 Dev Varman S..........D616 Devilder N............D469 Dewulf F..............D228 di Mauro A............D330 di Pasquale A.........D357 Diaz J................D291 Djokovic N............D643 Dlouhy L..............D487 Do M.Q................D532 Dolgopolov A..........D801 Dorsch B..............D385 Dosedel S.............D198 Draper S..............D270 Dreekmann H...........D249 Dupre T...............D370 Dupuis A..............D272 Durek R...............D526 Dustov F..............D551 Dutra Silva R.........SC73 Eagle J...............E122 Echagaray B...........E212 Economidis K..........E160 Eitzinger R...........E196 El Aarej M............E159 El Aynaoui Y..........E121 Eleskovic E...........E639 Elgin M...............E180 Elias G...............E698 Ellwood B.............E143 Elseneer G............E169 Elsner D..............E155 Enqvist T.............E113 Erlich J..............E152 Eschauer W............E141 Escude N..............E140 Etlis G...............E138 Evans B...............E254 Fahlke A..............F312 Falla A...............F444 Fasching A............F345 Faurel J.C............F344 Federer R.............F324 Ferreira W............F196 Ferreiro F............F433 Ferrer D..............F401 Ferrero J.C...........F316 Filippini M...........F165 Fischer M.............F580 Fish M................F339 Fitz S................F323 Flanagan I............F436 Fleischfresser T......F403 Fleishman Z...........F337 Flygt K...............F290 Fognini F.............F510 Fogues F..............F303 Fornell M.............F375 Fraile G..............F313 Freelove O............F309 Friedl L..............F299 Froberg J.............F360 Fromberg R............F164 Fruttero J.P..........F378 Fukarek O.............F292 Furlan R..............F192 Fyrstenberg M.........F364 Gabashvili T..........G681 Galimberti G..........G334 Gallardo Valles M.....G510 Galvani S.............G372 Gambill J.M...........G352 Gamonal H.............G375 Garcia A..............G414 Garcia M..............G353 Garcia-Lopez G........G476 Garcia-Sintes J.......G401 Gasquet R.............G628 Gaudenzi A............G254 Gaudi I...............G317 Gaudio G..............G374 Gensse A..............G695 Ghem A................G602 Gicquel M.............G436 Gil F.................G717 Gimelstob J...........G354 Gimeno-Traver D.......G676 Ginepri R.............G569 Giner J...............G400 Giraldo S.............G725 Godwin N..............G288 Goellner M.K..........G252 Goldstein P...........G333 Golmard J.............G319 Golovanov D...........G446 Gonzalez F............G415 Gonzalez P............G478 Gonzalez S............G551 Goodall J.............G744 Gooding J.............G404 Granollers-Pujol M....G710 Gregorc L.............G527 Gremelmayr D..........G512 Greul S...............G511 Grosjean S............G379 Gross O...............G297 Gruber K..............G426 Guardiola T...........G231 Guccione C............G621 Guez D................G753 Gulbis E..............G858 Gumy H................G247 Gustafsson M..........G182 Guzman J.P............G483 Haas T................H355 Haase R...............H756 Hadad A...............H385 Hadad M...............H256 Haehnel J.............H435 Haider-Mauer A........H804 Hajek J...............H571 Hanescu V.............H528 Hanley P..............H421 Hantschk M............H366 Harboe P..............H465 Harper-Griffith L.....H507 Harsanyi P............H354 Hartfield D...........H502 Healey N..............H431 Hellstrom M...........H382 Hemmes F..............H210 Henman T..............H336 Henry R...............H596 Herm-Zahlava J........H437 Hernandez A...........H346 Hernandez O...........H472 Hernych J.............H442 Heuberger I...........H380 Hewitt L..............H432 Hill M................H349 Hilton M..............H448 Hipfl M...............H364 Hippensteel K.........H469 Hirigoyen I...........H365 Hood M................H322 Hormazabal G..........H563 Horna L...............H390 Hrbaty D..............H377 Huet S................H284 Hui J.................H387 Humphries S...........H344 Huta Galung J.........H704 Ianni S...............I097 Ilie A................I052 Ionita V..............I094 Ishii Y...............I062 Istomin D.............I165 Ittogi T..............I198 Ivanisevic G..........I034 Ivanov-Smolensky K....I069 Iwabuchi S............I054 Iwami T...............I063 Jeanpierre J..........J164 Jenkins S.............J290 Jensen L..............J009 Jiang S...............J203 Johansson J...........J194 Johansson T...........J129 Jones A...............J233 Jones G.D.............J284 Jonsson F.............J148 Joyce M...............J100 Jun W.................J263 Junaid R..............J230 Junqueira D...........J214 Kafelnikov Y..........K267 Karanusic R...........K371 Karbacher B...........K190 Karlovic I............K336 Kauffmann C...........K306 Kempes E..............K317 Kendrick R............K448 Kennedy A.............K612 Ketola T..............K297 Khalfan S.............K346 Khalfan S.............K735 Khalfan S.............K346 Kiefer N..............K316 Kilderry P............K244 Kim A.................K379 Kim K.................K358 Kimmich M.............K676 Kindlmann D...........K436 King P................K409 King-Turner D.........K688 Kirillov E............K777 Klec I................K512 Klein T...............K840 Knippschild J.........K260 Knowle J..............K263 Knowles M.............K171 Koderisch C...........K696 Koellerer D...........K551 Koenig R..............K219 Kohlmann M............K257 Kohlschreiber P.......K435 Koll H................K307 Kondo H...............K457 Kornienko I...........K284 Korolev E.............K760 Korteling S...........K740 Koubek S..............K310 Krajan Z..............K313 Krajicek R............K214 Kralert P.............K349 Kratochvil M..........K319 Kravchuk K............K776 Kroslak J.............K296 Kubot L...............K540 Kucera K..............K237 Kuerten G.............K293 Kulti N...............K181 Kumar S...............K397 Kunitsyn I............K403 Kutac R...............K718 Kutsenko V............K308 Kuznetsov A...........K737 Labadze I.............L439 Lacko L...............L797 Lammer M..............L523 Landsberg J...........L408 Lapentti G............L430 Lapentti G............L290 Lapentti G............L430 Lapentti N............L290 Lareau S..............L226 Larkham T.............L257 Larose S..............L334 Larsson M.............L206 Ledovskikh M..........L702 Lee H.T...............L311 Lee M.................L333 Levine I..............L517 Levine J..............L799 Levinsky J............L391 Levy H................L336 Lisnard J.R...........L386 Liukko V..............L292 Ljubicic I............L360 Llodra M..............L428 Logtens P.............L546 Lopes H...............L341 Lopez F...............L397 Lopez M...............L480 Lopez-Moron A.........L231 Lorenzi P.............L503 Lu H..................L660 Lu Y.H................L575 Luczak P..............L515 Lukaev R..............L504 Luque D...............L633 Luxa P................L353 Luzzi F...............L395 Machado R.............MA49 Mackin A..............M820 MacLagan M............M480 MacPhie B.............M448 Mahut N...............M873 Malcor O..............M601 Malisse X.............M680 Mamiit C..............M614 Mankad H..............M699 Manta L...............M551 Mantilla F............M535 Marach O..............M760 Marcaccio G...........M812 Marin J.A.............M578 Marques N.............M197 Marray J..............M983 Martelli M............M543 Martin A..............M590 Martin T..............M442 Massa E...............M714 Massu N...............M655 Mathieu J.............M902 Mathieu P.H...........M850 Matias N..............M663 Matkowski M...........M844 Matos-Gil I...........M934 Matsui T..............M815 Mayer F...............MB02 Mazarakis V...........M854 Medvedev A............M475 Meffert D.............M836 Meligeni F............M443 Mello R...............M708 Melo D................M611 Melo R................M708 Melzer J..............M762 Mergea F..............MB27 Mertinak M............M776 Miketa D..............M555 Milligan L............M607 Minar I...............MA41 Miranda I.............M783 Mirnegg M.............M997 Mirnyi M..............M595 Miyao J...............M864 Mlynarik Z............M711 Moldovan I............M600 Monaco J..............MA21 Monfils G.............MC65 Montanes A............M824 Montcourt M...........MB84 Moodie W..............M759 Mor L.................M573 Moraru G..............MA36 Morejon L.............M506 Moretti H.............M468 Morrison J............M805 Moser F...............M747 Mota B................M406 Motomura G............M531 Moya C................M605 Moyano D..............M538 Muller G..............MA30 Murray A..............MC10 Mutis O...............M640 Nadal R...............N409 Nalbandian D..........N301 Nargiso D.............N109 Naso G................N437 Navarra M.............N230 Navarro S.............N259 Navarro-Pastor I......N309 Nestor D..............N210 Neumuller I...........N277 Nielsen M.............N267 Nielsen M.............N390 Nielsen M.............N267 Niemeyer F............N291 Nieminen J............N289 Nijaki R..............N314 Norby R...............N415 Norman D..............N233 Norman M..............N250 Novak J...............N254 Nunez E...............N334 OBrien A..............O099 Odesnik W.............O234 Ogorodov O............O127 Okun N................O133 Olguin L..............O117 Oncins J..............O076 Ondruska M............O098 Onoda M...............O145 Ortegren J............O151 Ouahab L..............O207 Ouahabi T.............W238 Oudsema S.............O252 Paes L................P269 Palmer J..............P233 Panfil G..............PB13 Parada F..............P518 Parmar A..............P398 Pashanski B...........P642 Patience O............P488 Patriarca D...........P634 Pavel A...............P280 Pedroso A.............P440 Peppas S..............P350 Peralta J.............P519 Perez D...............P524 Peric T...............P597 Perry T...............P485 Pescariu D............P254 Peschek D.............P616 Pescosolido S.........P235 Petrovic D............P387 Petzschner P..........P624 Peya A................P467 Pfeiffer K............P535 Phau B................P436 Philippoussis M.......P338 Phillips T............P452 Pioline C.............P226 Pless K...............P491 Polansky P............PB22 Popp A................P395 Popp T................P620 Portas A..............P305 Pospisil J............P605 Pozzi G...............P045 Pretzsch A............P353 Prieto S..............P324 Prinosil D............P273 Prodon E..............P487 Prpic F...............P567 Przysiezny M..........P701 Puentes G.............P272 Puerta M..............P372 Querrey S.............Q927 Quintero M............Q017 Qureshi A.............Q019 Radic M...............R421 Rafter P..............R255 Ram A.................R399 Ram R.................R548 Ramirez-Hidalgo R.....R383 Raoux G...............R186 Rascon T..............R240 Rastogi K.............R704 Ratiwatana S..........R519 Rea S.................R615 Rehnquist B...........R364 Reichel A.............R254 Reid T................R583 Reister J.............R782 Reneberg R............R016 Rettenmaier T.........R616 Reynolds B............R483 Rieschick S...........R758 Rios M................R286 Robert S..............R612 Robredo T.............R419 Rocha D...............R630 Rochus C..............R336 Rochus O..............R397 Roddick A.............R485 Rodriguez M...........R251 Roger-Vasselin E......R613 Roitman S.............R388 Roshardt R............R883 Rosol L...............R685 Rosset M..............R214 Roux L................R280 Rusedski G............R237 Russell M.............R368 Ruud C................R219 Ryderstedt M..........R632 Sa A..................S604 Sabau R...............S535 Safin M...............S741 Salva B...............SC95 Salzenstein J.........S564 Sampras P.............S402 Sanchez D.............S677 Sanchez de Luna J.A...SC19 Sanchez J.............S015 Sandbichler A.........SE31 Sanguinetti D.........S480 Santopadre V..........S413 Santoro F.............S424 Saoudi S..............S773 Saretta F.............S876 Sargsian S............S545 Sarstrand M...........S751 Saulnier C............S681 Savolt A..............S608 Schalken S............S572 Scherrer J.C..........S813 Schiessling T.........S600 Schranz W.............S649 Schuettler R..........S636 Schukin Y.............S809 Schwank E.............SE66 Sekulov J.............S626 Sela D................SC56 Sell M................S601 Seppi A...............SA93 Serra F...............S963 Serrano O.............S676 Settergren J..........S709 Sherwood D............S818 Shimada T.............S579 Shvec A...............S674 Sidorenko A...........SD78 Siemerink J...........S381 Sijsling I............SF36 Silva J...............S877 Simmonds P............SD01 Simon G...............SD32 Simoni A..............S721 Sirianni J............S673 Skoch D...............S552 Sluiter R.............S693 Smeets R..............SD56 Smit J................SC03 Smith L...............S765 Snobel P..............S799 Soderling R...........SA49 Soeda G...............SC47 Sousa P...............S483 Sousa T...............T724 Spadea V..............S544 Spottl M..............S648 Spracklin T...........S949 Squillari F...........S568 Srichaphan P..........S675 Stadler S.............S944 Stafford G............S406 Stakhovsky S..........SC77 Stanoytchev O.........S519 Starace P.............S843 Stark J...............S403 Steckley R............S847 Stepanek R............S694 Stoliarov A...........S688 Stoltenberg J.........S331 Stoppini A............S842 Summerer T............S990 Sun P.................SC92 Suzuki T..............S550 Svarc L...............S772 Sweeting R............SG87 Syed F................F329 Szymanski J...........S585 Tabara M..............T243 Tahiri M..............T200 Taino E...............T209 Tarallo S.............T261 Tarango J.............T136 Tavares L.............T771 Tebbutt M.............T195 Tecau H...............T749 Tenconi T.............T332 Terachi T.............T277 Thomann N.............T228 Thomas J..............T213 Thron A...............T836 Tieleman L............T168 Tiilikainen K.........T207 Tillstrom M...........T166 Timfjord N............T236 Tipsarevic J..........T742 Tkalec M..............T264 Tobon M...............T133 Todero N..............T269 Tomashevich D.........T212 Tong M................T235 Tramacchi P...........T156 Traykov I.............T240 Trifu G...............T199 Trimmel C.............T231 Troicki V.............T840 Tsonga J.W............T786 Tuksar S..............T760 Tursunov D............T315 Udomchoke D...........U043 Uebel L...............U045 Ulihrach B............U032 Ullyett K.............U024 Uppal V...............U044 Urban F...............U057 Vacek D...............V141 Vacek J...............V220 Vagnozzi S............V339 Vahaly B..............V303 Vajda I...............V226 Van der Dium A........V494 van der Meer N........V457 van Gemerden M........V267 van Lottum J..........V201 van Scheppingen D.....S559 Vanek J...............V207 Varlet J..............V206 Vasek R...............V151 Vassallo-Arguello M...V258 Vemic D...............V205 Ventura S.............V251 Venus M...............V576 Verdasco F............V306 Verkerk M.............V232 Veronelli D...........V239 Vicente F.............V195 Vico U................V256 Vik R.................V247 Viloca J.A............V161 Vinciguerra A.........V250 Vinck C...............V175 Vlasov D..............V296 Vliegen K.............V309 Voinea A..............V166 Volandri F............V254 Voltchkov V...........V211 Wagh A................W541 Wang Y.Jr.............W291 Wang Y.T..............W373 Warburg S.............W361 Ward J................W503 Washington M..........W214 Waske A...............W300 Wassen R..............W224 Wawrinka S............W367 Weiner G..............W217 Weinzierl J...........W201 Wessels P.............W254 Wheaton D.............W123 Whitehouse W..........W272 Widom T...............W359 Willems R.............W247 Willman D.............W365 Wilson B..............W360 Wiltschnig H..........W200 Witt A................W242 Witten J..............W387 Woodbridge T..........W136 Woodforde M...........W035 Woodruff C............W212 Yani M................Y070 Yim R.................Y100 Yoo D.................Y114 Yoon Y................Y033 Young D...............Y124 Youzhny M.............Y061 Yu X.Y................Y105 Zabaleta M............Z073 Zeng S.X..............Z151 Zhang Y...............Y039 Zhu B.Q...............Z096 Ziadi M...............Z163 Zib T.................Z074 Zimonjic N............Z072 Zitko R...............Z084 Zovko L...............Z104 Zverev M..............Z168

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system I still want to do this...my problem is I really don't know what kind of data we can get together:unsure I can tell you how I've been screwed by most of those players btw:lol:lol

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system Mr I, I personally think your input would be of the greatest worth. Yes I can analyse the data and come up with some for of rating system with Datapunter and Sgt Sunshine but it is your unquantifiable knowledge of how the world of tennis works that provides the greatest worth in my opinion. What style of play the players have - could you categorise the players?

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system Tournament............................ATP TENNIS TOURNAMENT ID ABN AMRO World Tennis Tournament......407 adidas Open...........................327 Allianz Suisse Open...................314 ATP Buenos Aires......................506 Australian Hardcourt Championships....339 Australian Open.......................580 Bellsouth Open........................505 BMW Open..............................308 BNP Paribas...........................352 Brasil Open...........................533 CA Tennis Trophy......................337 Campionati Internazionali Di Sicilia..325 Channel Open..........................433 Chennai Open..........................891 China Open............................747 Cincinnati TMS........................422 Colombia Open.........................359 Copenhagen Open.......................481 Countrywide Classic...................423 Croatia Open..........................439 Dubai Open............................495 Dutch Open............................317 Estoril Open..........................468 French Open...........................520 Gelsor Open...........................773 Generali Open.........................319 Gerry Weber Open......................500 Grand Prix de Lyon....................375 Grand Prix Hassan II..................360 Hall of Fame Championships............315 Hamburg TMS...........................414 Heineken Open.........................301 Hypo Group Tennis International.......306 Indian Wells TMS......................404 International Championships...........499 Internazionali di Lombardia...........408 Japan Open............................329 Kingfisher Airlines Tennis Open.......3465 Kremlin Cup...........................438 Kroger St. Jude.......................402 Legg Mason Classic....................418 Madrid Masters........................1536 Mallorca Open.........................573 Marseille Open........................496 Masters Cup...........................605 Mercedes Cup..........................321 Mexican Open..........................807 Monte Carlo Masters...................410 Montreal TMS..........................421 Nottingham Open.......................741 Open de Moselle.......................341 Open Seat Godo........................425 Ordina Open...........................440 PBZ Zagreb Indoors....................2276 Pilot Pen Tennis......................3348 President's Cup.......................73 Qatar Open............................451 RCA Championships.....................419 Rome TMS..............................416 Salem Open............................336 Samsung Open..........................620 SAP Open..............................424 Sony Ericsson Open....................403 St. Petersburg Open...................568 Stella Artois.........................311 Stockholm Open........................429 Stuttgart TMS.........................357 Swedish Open..........................316 Swiss Indoors.........................328 Sydney International..................338 Tennis Int'l of San Marino............475 Thailand Open.........................1720 The Hamlet Cup........................441 U.S. Clay Court Championships.........717 US Open...............................560 Verizon Tennis Challenge..............409 Vietnam Open..........................890 Wimbledon.............................540

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

What style of play the players have - could you categorise the players?

Yeah I could do that for most of the players....the one's I couldn't wouldn't get near an ATP tournament so don't think they're needed i.e. Adaktusson J no idea who this guy is and looking around he hasn't played for 13 months. How many categories do you think? And what if a players fits into more than one category? i.e. big server and aggressive baseliner. I'm not bad with the stats either;) just a little out of practice:unsure

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system I've been back through the data I have and it is this: 21,586 match results for male ATP tennis results Game won by each player per set Sets won by each player per game Odds available from a number of bookies Seeds, LL, Q, SE, WC for all tournaments between 2000 and 2007 whenever I stopped, mid may i think) Current Tournament Previous Results (protecting points, crowd fav) PLY1_Last Year (text) PLY1_Last Time (text) PLY1_Prev Winner (1 or blank) PLY1_Prev Finalist (1 or blank) PLY1_Prev Semi (1 or blank) PLY1_Prev Quarter (1 or blank) PLY2_Last Year (text) PLY2_Last Time (text) PLY2_Prev Winner (1 or blank) PLY2_Prev Finalist (1 or blank) PLY2_Prev Semi (1 or blank) PLY2_Prev Quarter (1 or blank) Change In Rank Ply1_Rank - Rank On Match Day Ply1_Change in rank (-1 month) - Rank 1 month ago Ply1_Change in rank (-2 months) - Rank 2 months ago Ply1_Change in rank (-6 months) - Rank 6 months ago Ply1_Change in rank (-12 months) - Rank 12 months ago Ply2_Rank - Rank On Match Day Ply2_Change in rank (-1 month) - Rank 1 month ago Ply2_Change in rank (-2 months) - Rank 2 months ago Ply2_Change in rank (-6 months) - Rank 6 months ago Ply2_Change in rank (-12 months) - Rank 12 months ago Age on match day Playing in home country - yes or no PLY1_ACES PLY1_DOUBLE_FAULTS PLY1_1ST_SERVE_PCT PLY1_PCT_1ST_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_2ND_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_BREAK_PTS_SAVED PLY1_SERVICE_GAMES_PLYD PLY1_PCT_1ST_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_2ND_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_BREAK_PTS_WON PLY1_RETURN_GAMES_PLYD PLY1_PCT_TOT_SERVICE_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_TOT_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY1_PCT_TOT_PTS_WON PLY2_ACES PLY2_DOUBLE_FAULTS PLY2_1ST_SERVE_PCT PLY2_PCT_1ST_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_2ND_SERVE_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_BREAK_PTS_SAVED PLY2_SERVICE_GAMES_PLYD PLY2_PCT_1ST_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_2ND_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_BREAK_PTS_WON PLY2_RETURN_GAMES_PLYD PLY2_PCT_TOT_SERVICE_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_TOT_RETURN_PTS_WON PLY2_PCT_TOT_PTS_WON COURT_MINS H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY1 AVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_SET_PLY1 AVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 3SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 5SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY2 AVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_SET_PLY2 AVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 AVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 3SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 5SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 SURFACE_H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_G_PER_SET_PLY1 SURFACE_AVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY1 SURFACESETTIEBREAK_PLY1 SURFACE3SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 SURFACE5SETTIEBREAK_PLY1 SURFACE_H2H_WIN_PCT_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_S_PER_MATCH_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_MATCH_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_S_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_S_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_WON_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_3_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACEAVG_G_PER_SET_IN_5_SET_MATCHES_PLY2 SURFACESETTIEBREAK_PLY2 SURFACE3SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 SURFACE5SETTIEBREAK_PLY2 NO_H2HS DAYS_SINCE_LAST_H2H NO_SURFACE_H2HS DAYS_SINCE_LAST_SURFACE_H2H H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY1 H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY2 H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY1 H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY2 SURFACE_H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY1 SURFACE_H2H_3SET_WINPCT_PLY2 SURFACE_H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY1 SURFACE_H2H_5SET_WINPCT_PLY2 NO_3SET_MATCHES NO_5_SET_MATCHES SURFACE_3SET_MATCHES SURFACE_5SET_MATCHES All of it apart from the match stats bit is in a predictive state, i,e correct before the match starts. The match stats stuff needs aggregating in some fashion. Inter tournament data needs identifying, collating and storing. Form is also an issue here as well, the majority of my data is about the H2H. Which Mr I can confirm what importance he thinks it has on the outcome, or is general form a bigger factor. We need an appreciation of player style. There is nothing about left v's right - is there players out there that can't play against a different handed player? fictional e.g Soderling (assuming right handed) just can't beat lefties?

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

Yeah I could do that for most of the players....the one's I couldn't wouldn't get near an ATP tournament so don't think they're needed i.e. Adaktusson J no idea who this guy is and looking around he hasn't played for 13 months. How many categories do you think? And what if a players fits into more than one category? i.e. big server and aggressive baseliner. I'm not bad with the stats either;) just a little out of practice:unsure

i'm not sure how many categories we would have. Let's say we have 10, I envisage them as ten different flags where any player could conceiveably tick every box. A more workable solution might be sub categories, serving style, playing style. I dunno. I need to add that all the data I have listed I will happily hand over to Datapunter to put into a database he mentioned doing further up this thread. Datapunter - anything happened in this area? Sgt Sunshine - got anything to bring to the party?

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system I think H2H is a bit overrated by punters but sometimes can be important. Just look at Djokovic v Murray. It was 4-0 to Djokovic but a lot happened since those meetings and Murray has just taken down the last two meetings. Soderling can beat lefties he just chokes. A lot.:lol:lol Not sure if you know but tennisinsight.com does a decent page for each player against lefties e.g. http://www.tennisinsight.com/match_preview_activity.php?player1=34&player2=51&player=1&activity=6

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system Right I'll think of some categories and probably get it done Monday/Tuesday.

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

Right I'll think of some categories and probably get it done Monday/Tuesday.

Progress. :ok Let's hope DP and SS check in here sometime soon and we can get the show on the road.

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system I'll have a centralised DB setup next week, should be able to do match results automatically with set scores, and i'll also be adding the Betfair historical data as odds reference. Going to create a table for players and tournaments which will be the "official" table, then have an alias table to reference that. So for example the official table will have: ID=1 , Displayname="Federer, R", Name="Federer", Firstname="Roger", etc... The reference table will have: Source="Betfairhistoric",Namereference="Federer, R",ID=1 Source="DPresultsscanner",Namereference="Roger Federer",ID=1 Source="Matthew",Namereference="R Federer",ID=1 So this way we can have info from different sources or individual contributors reference the same "official" data tables. I'll probably do the Displayname the same as on the ATP site, that should cover 90% of the players, the rest we'll have to do the ID manually. I take it you guy's know your way around a MySQL database ?

[Matthew]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

I'll have a centralised DB setup next week, should be able to do match results automatically with set scores, and i'll also be adding the Betfair historical data as odds reference. Going to create a table for players and tournaments which will be the "official" table, then have an alias table to reference that. So for example the official table will have: ID=1 , Displayname="Federer, R", Name="Federer", Firstname="Roger", etc... The reference table will have: Source="Betfairhistoric",Namereference="Federer, R",ID=1 Source="DPresultsscanner",Namereference="Roger Federer",ID=1 Source="Matthew",Namereference="R Federer",ID=1 So this way we can have info from different sources or individual contributors reference the same "official" data tables. I'll probably do the Displayname the same as on the ATP site, that should cover 90% of the players, the rest we'll have to do the ID manually. I take it you guy's know your way around a MySQL database ?

All sounds good to me. I'm pretty sure we should be able to work with the DB okay. In which way will we be accessing your data? What will us as the user see? Or will we have the freedom to submit our own statements? Although I've not has a lot of exposure to MySQL databases, i'm sure I'll pick it up quick enough.

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system

Right I'll think of some categories and probably get it done Monday/Tuesday.

Should I do this in a spreadsheet/database/word?:unsure

[Datapunter]

Re: Tennis rating/info/assessment system At this stage i'd say whatever you feel most comfortable with. Also see if you can look at things from the other side. Imagine things you'd like to know in order to see if it can be turned into an edge. Once the question is defined then we see what data would be required to answer it. Here's an old one: "Do qualifiers perform better than implied by their odds, any difference between surfaces or a change in surface" Once the question is defined we see what data is needed: - Past matches where at least one player is a qualifier. - On those matches odds information pre match. - Surface of that match, surface of players previous matches. The rest just follows.