robilaruk Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 negran$ has been fairly liberal with his/her raising range, and Martina has stated to shove most hands as she/he was short and has doubled up twice since we hit ITM so whats my play? Damo (and as this is number 30! thought I would make it visual for a change! :ok ) Shot at 2007-07-12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? Easy call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? Or shove should I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? Or shove should I say. I agree - I'd prefer to shove and get negrean to fold if he was trying to steal the blinds. I don't want to price him in to trying to see the flop with Ax and catching a card to beat my JJ. If he has a monster, then I'll regret it, but he sounds like a blind-grabber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKVilla Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? FOLD I'd let them battle it out and if they both call you'll see their cards and what they are happy to push with when they are short handed without giving them any info about your fold. This should help you heads up. If you call you could be find yourself in third and then bullied out of the tourney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? I'd actually be tempted just to call. Calling would leave you with 3000+ chips so still with a decent chip stack. You then give negrean 3 choices, fold (trying to steal), call (although pot commited) or shove for another 1500 chips. Only calling gives you fold equity if negrean shoves. I'm not saying I would fold if he does shove, I'm saying you have a choice. Why do you want the choice? Well what if you fold hoping the other two will take each other out? What happens if negrean also folds? You've just folded JJ against the short stack because of negrean (you'd call in an instance if this was heads up). On the other hand if you shove and negrean calls then you have JJ against 2 opponents, which reduces the chances of it holding up. Calling gives you the ability to see what negrean does before making the final decision, with enough fold equity to use if you feel it's right. However the poll only allows me to select fold or shove therefore I'd have to vote shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hedonist Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? The highest S&G level I've played is $10... I'd be looking to go all-in and isolate. I'm certain you have the best hand by far. It wouldn't surprise me if martina has utter junk. I'd want to get my money in whilst I have the best of it. If your oppo has AKs, you're in the lead by almost 8%, which makes it a winning play over time. If you win, you have a 3 to 1 chip lead heads up. If you lose. You still have 10xBB, which hopefully will be enough to either catch another good hand, or jam a couple of pots :hope EDITED: for smelling pisstakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 12, 2007 Author Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? Thanks for the well thought out and reasoned argument - though calling is essentially the same as shoving really, it costs me 3K to call, if N re-shoves I am not folding for another 2K - that would be a bit daft really IMHO as I have committed 3K in chips and am folding for another 2K to win a potential 12K? I could win the side pot against him for 4K even if I lose the main pot so thats why I put shove or fold - but will put up the 'call' option next time :ok Damo I'd actually be tempted just to call. Calling would leave you with 3000+ chips so still with a decent chip stack. You then give negrean 3 choices, fold (trying to steal), call (although pot commited) or shove for another 1500 chips. Only calling gives you fold equity if negrean shoves. I'm not saying I would fold if he does shove, I'm saying you have a choice. Why do you want the choice? Well what if you fold hoping the other two will take each other out? What happens if negrean also folds? You've just folded JJ against the short stack because of negrean (you'd call in an instance if this was heads up). On the other hand if you shove and negrean calls then you have JJ against 2 opponents, which reduces the chances of it holding up. Calling gives you the ability to see what negrean does before making the final decision, with enough fold equity to use if you feel it's right. However the poll only allows me to select fold or shove therefore I'd have to vote shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? Within the time constraints of the game I'd be shoving everytime. However when I stepped back, looked at the situation, and thought about it the problem is not what you do, but what negrean does. You're only folding in this situation if you believe ngrean will call whatever. Therefore you have to consider the call. Looking at it in that manner I found some advantages of the call, fold equity, and the ability to find out the most important piece of information - what is ngrean going to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 12, 2007 Author Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? excellent post of the day! :clap :clap :clap Damo Within the time constraints of the game I'd be shoving everytime. However when I stepped back, looked at the situation, and thought about it the problem is not what you do, but what negrean does. You're only folding in this situation if you believe ngrean will call whatever. Therefore you have to consider the call. Looking at it in that manner I found some advantages of the call, fold equity, and the ability to find out the most important piece of information - what is ngrean going to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? The assumption that Ngrean is going to call, it's a insta fold for me. If you lose the hand, you triple someone up, and go heads up with the winner with 3k to their 9k. fold and go heads up with the winner, starting with even stacks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimar21 Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? this is really hard.. nice one really :ok if you fold he'll probably call if Martina's been shoving a lot so you'll end up even stacked with one of them like said in the post above.. if you shove you would probably isolate if he doesn't have a monster, but you might still lose to martina which would be useless gambling IMO. You might not isolate either which would be worse. I think since they will most probably play with each other you will make a positive move by folding and be the one that's gaining.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? thanks for all the great responses in the end I shoved, Ng folded and Martina flipped over A9 - well you all know what hit the flop..... :eyes anyway lesson learnt :ok Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? anyway lesson learnt :ok What was the lesson? Correct to call? You were called by a worse hand, with the chance to eliminate an opponent (move up the pay scale) and have a huge chip lead..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? What was the lesson? Correct to call? You were called by a worse hand' date=' with the chance to eliminate an opponent (move up the pay scale) and have a huge chip lead.....[/quote'] I think I should have folded, just to let NG have a call instead - for all I know he might have something worth calling with I only have 300 invested, do I need to be calling for at least half my stack with JJ? I was the one doing the calling, not the shoving Today I called with QQ on the bubble when i didn't have to and AQ hit a straight on the river, after I flopped trips...... he was the only one who could cripple me and I called :eyes Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? I think I should have folded' date=' just to let NG have a call instead[/quote'] There are only QQ, KK and AA better than you - he didn't have any of those (or he would have called) :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocket Lady Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? I would have shoved here to stop N from calling as you said M had shoved most hands so was doing so with not much of a hand. (IF N called you might have taken both out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? There are only QQ' date=' KK and AA better than you - he didn't have any of those (or he would have called) :unsure[/quote'] I know that but if I fold and he has A10 or 66 for instance he might fancy his chances as he is HU - however as I shoved, he has to put me on something good and is prepared to fold his A10 66 etc it was the wrong play (in hindsight) but blindingly obvious at the time..... Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimar21 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXX) - Shove or Fold? I don't know if negran wanted to make this move but sometimes I min-raise from UTG and the others get involved in a fight while I fold and watch them. This is a good move if you can pick the spot..thought you should know if you already don't of course :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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