STT stealing requirements

[aimar21]

I really need help with this subject as I believe I'm too passive about it. The important things I know of are, your stack size (M), active players' stack sizes, types of opponents to your left, situation at the tournament , your cards of course and the most important your position (how many folds to you). I'm assuming the blinds have gone to a reasonable level and the table is down to 5-6 players or even less. So it's time to steal. So what are your requirements for the ones above, to make a steal? I know it's too detailed but I just want to be a bit more aggressive the right way as I always end up in a push or fold situation. It gets too nervous :lol. cheers.

[Jimany]

Re: STT stealing requirements Haven't been on in a while but i'll give this one a shot anyway. Anyway when I feel the need to steal I think it's best to do so when you have more than 15-20 BB's just incase you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar you're not crippled afterwards. Position as you said is the most important factor, you want to be on the button/cut-off for most of your moves. As regards what cards to do it on, I like to think of the quote from Rounders; "always leave yourself outs". I don't find much value raising with hands like 6/7 or 7/8 incase one of the blinds decides to go for a double up with his K/7 or Q/8 etc. I'd add A/x, K/x, 2 pictures, any small pair to the range of raising hands you'll already have. If you are called, you're in position, make a continuation bet it if it's checked to you. Somewhere around 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot will find out where you are. If it's bet into you you'll have to decide whether your hand is strong enough to continue on in the hand. Also some players see the button raise as an opportunity to call and bet out on the flop, if you have some notes on the player and think he might fold to a raise, have a go at it. Another way to steal in late position is to just call and bet out if the flop is checked to you (it is about 60-70% of the time). This is useful since you're risking far less (no raise preflop & betting less on the flop than if it was raised) so there's less chance of you going broke. Thats bout it for now, have fun stealing ;)

[robilaruk]

Re: STT stealing requirements just a few thoughts: 1. don't feel you have to steal 2. sometimes you have to steal 3. sometimes you don't have to steal 4. make sure you steal to have a chance of getting ITM as you can see its a very complicated subject! I think you have summed up the requirements for stealing quite well! (tho the cards are irrelevant really, though you obviously prefer to have 'decent' cards in case you get called!) when to steal? the less players to act after you the better steal from mid-stacks as they have too much to 'lose' by calling and getting it wrong - short stacks or big stacks might look you up because they are really desperate, or they have chips to burn steal from tight passive players rather than LAG's be aware of others stealing attempts and be prepared to shove AI as a re-steal (this will get you more chips if it works, but you are out if not, so carefully pick your spots!) chip count? well you have 6BB or left and are a shortie with 5 players, then shove - the best stack to steal with is about 12BB, because you can make it 3BB to go and still have a healthy stack if called/re-shoved what to steal with: this doesn't really matter, any two cards can win you chips off the right players in the right position and this is the hardest thing to do, to be prepared to shove with 10 4 off with position, it is something that is learnt with experience - what I do when i get desperate for chips is to say to myself "I am all in next hand regardless of the cards if its folded to me", that way I have made my mind up, so I just shove, and you must stick to this - remember that generally you are going to be a 60/40 dog if you shove rubbish and get called, obviously this changes more to your favour if your highest card is a Q K Ace in which case you are getting to be the 60/40 fav how much to steal with? you have to watch the table and see what gets folks to fold - and how much you are prepared to risk of your stack and fold if someone comes over the top of you - I know a lot of players try the min raise as it screams AA/KK etc, I don't like this at all, as you are just about giving the BB the right odds to call with ATC even if you do have AA/KK - so always raise at least 1.5 X the blinds (so at 100/200 make it 500 to go, or 550 etc). If folks have been calling to raises anyway, I sometimes throw in an 'odd' amount, say 488, or 512 at 100/200, just to confuse them a little (I'll do the same if I have AA/KK as well!) push or fold: some folks prefer not to steal at all but play push or fold (monkey shovers) and there is a mathmatical arguement for doing so, in that the fold equity you gain by shoving, makes up for the fact you ahve shite cards, as your opponents are making a mistake by calling - I am not a true convert to being a monkey shover - I ahve tried it and it doesn't work for me, but it is something to think about - there is (was?) a link at 2+2.com on the single table tounry forum to a free shareware application that showed you why being a monkey is the correct play - I would check it out and see if it works for you (its in the sticky thread at the top) - alternatively search for SNGPT (sit and go power tools) on the web. nice thread BTW :ok Damo

I really need help with this subject as I believe I'm too passive about it. The important things I know of are, your stack size (M), active players' stack sizes, types of opponents to your left, situation at the tournament , your cards of course and the most important your position (how many folds to you). I'm assuming the blinds have gone to a reasonable level and the table is down to 5-6 players or even less. So it's time to steal. So what are your requirements for the ones above, to make a steal? I know it's too detailed but I just want to be a bit more aggressive the right way as I always end up in a push or fold situation. It gets too nervous :lol. cheers.

[aimar21]

Re: STT stealing requirements thanks mate, I usually do the limp and then raise on the flop move because at low levels when I raise from the button I'm usually faced with an all-in because they are pissed off or smt. Once I called one of them, he turned over Q2o and beat my cowboys with a flush (4 hearts on the flop). Seeing the flop makes them satisfied then I can steal :lol. So, you agree that under 15 bb or let's say 10 bb it's push or fold?

[aimar21]

Re: STT stealing requirements

push or fold: some folks prefer not to steal at all but play push or fold (monkey shovers) and there is a mathmatical arguement for doing so, in that the fold equity you gain by shoving, makes up for the fact you ahve shite cards, as your opponents are making a mistake by calling - I am not a true convert to being a monkey shover - I ahve tried it and it doesn't work for me, but it is something to think about - there is (was?) a link at 2+2.com on the single table tounry forum to a free shareware application that showed you why being a monkey is the correct play - I would check it out and see if it works for you (its in the sticky thread at the top) - alternatively search for SNGPT (sit and go power tools) on the web. nice thread BTW :ok Damo

thanks for the ones above this one as they really showed me the big picture rather than single hands or situations. I'll reply to you in this one. I'm actually a monkey shover even though I don't want to be. It's because most of the time I think I don't have the sufficient stack to steal. It really works but it can't get me too far (still gets me ITM as third or OOM as fourth). That's why I wanted to learn to steal, maybe I can get more 1st places that way. thanks for your reply and kind words cheers..:ok

[GaF]

Re: STT stealing requirements The other thing to think about (which I haven't seen anyone mention, though I've only skim read) is whether it is really worth stealing .... if you are on the SB and everyone folds to you and the blinds are 10/20 with large stacks - just fold ..... the 30 chips in the pot just aren't worth stealing ..... (Just seen - you talk of M in post 1 - that should cover this)

[robilaruk]

Re: STT stealing requirements what might be an idea is to post a few HH in a new thread "should I steal here" with some background to what the other players are like etc - that way we can judge whether it might be a profitable play? Aimar - no shame in shoving, like I said that is what I do when I am

thanks for the ones above this one as they really showed me the big picture rather than single hands or situations. I'll reply to you in this one. I'm actually a monkey shover even though I don't want to be. It's because most of the time I think I don't have the sufficient stack to steal. It really works but it can't get me too far (still gets me ITM as third or OOM as fourth). That's why I wanted to learn to steal' date=' maybe I can get more 1st places that way. thanks for your reply and kind words cheers..:ok[/quote']

[slapdash]

Re: STT stealing requirements

push or fold: some folks prefer not to steal at all but play push or fold (monkey shovers) and there is a mathmatical arguement for doing so, in that the fold equity you gain by shoving, makes up for the fact you ahve shite cards, as your opponents are making a mistake by calling - I am not a true convert to being a monkey shover - I ahve tried it and it doesn't work for me, but it is something to think about - there is (was?) a link at 2+2.com on the single table tounry forum to a free shareware application that showed you why being a monkey is the correct play - I would check it out and see if it works for you (its in the sticky thread at the top) - alternatively search for SNGPT (sit and go power tools) on the web.

I think the point is that, especially on the bubble, you need a VERY good hand to justify making a call that risks eliminating you. The prize structure severely warps the pot odds at this stage. For example, if there are four players left with roughly equal stacks and a 50/30/20 prize structure and one of the other players goes all-in, then you need almost a 2/3 chance of winning the hand to make calling +EV. Which means that even if he's going all-in with every two cards, you shouldn't call with KQs or 66. So if your opponents know this, you will usually get away with shoving. The problem is that if you shove and your opponent makes the mistake of calling with a good, but not good enough, hand, it's not you who gets the benefit of his error, it's the other two players at the table. So I suspect this kind of strategy may work better against better players. You want your opponents at least to understand that they shouldn't call just because they think they probably have the better hand.

[robilaruk]

Re: STT stealing requirements I would agree with you, it works against good, but not great players (it also works against weak passive players who will wait for AA-JJ etc to calll :eek ) of course, if you understand the shove theory and someone you know also understands the shove theory then perhaps you should be calling more because their shoving range is huge........ be interested in knowing your thoughts on this Slap, does this make sense from a theory point of view? cheers Damo

So I suspect this kind of strategy may work better against better players. You want your opponents at least to understand that they shouldn't call just because they think they probably have the better hand.

[aimar21]

Re: STT stealing requirements

what might be an idea is to post a few HH in a new thread "should I steal here" with some background to what the other players are like etc - that way we can judge whether it might be a profitable play? Damo

Good point mate, though my HH thread will mostly include questions about stealing or calling situations as I believe I play good early on and need improvement for the late play. Still we can open a new thread like that and everybody could post their hands in stealing situations. I believe it will have a great deal of information inside. I'm giving a little break and won't be playing tonite but as soon as I have a stealing question, I will post it in the new thread (will open one if not opened). cheers :cheers

[slapdash]

Re: STT stealing requirements

of course, if you understand the shove theory and someone you know also understands the shove theory then perhaps you should be calling more because their shoving range is huge........ be interested in knowing your thoughts on this Slap, does this make sense from a theory point of view?

Well, of course if they shove weaker hands, that increases the number of hands that you can profitably call with. But not very much, I think, in the most favourable situations for indiscriminate shoving. The point is that you need to be a very big favourite to make it right to call, and not many hands are that big a favourite, even over a completely random hand. For example, if you think about the example of four players with equal stacks remaining in an STT with $50/$30/$20 prizes, then everybody's tournament equity (assuming equal skill) is $25, a quarter of the prize pool for each. But suppose two of the players get into an all-in confrontation, and one wins, so that the chips are now distributed in the ratio 2:1:1. The loser of the confrontation wins nothing, so has lost $25 in tournament equity. But the winner of the confrontation doesn't now have $50 in tournament equity. He'll only win that much if he comes first, which is by no means guaranteed. So he hasn't won $25 in tournament equity. How much has he won? Well, he has half the chips, so let's say he has a 50% chance of coming first. If he doesn't, he has twice as many chips as the third player, so let's say he comes second one time in three and third one time in six. So his tournament equity is (1/2)*$50 + (1/3)*$30 + (1/6)*$20, or just over $38. So he has only gained about $13 in tournament equity, not much more than half what he risked losing. So to make it worthwhile to get into an all-in confrontation, you need to be about a 2-1 on favourite. The consistent winners are the two players who aren't involved in the confrontation. Their tournament equity increases by about $6, from $25 to $31, with no risk.

[robilaruk]

Re: STT stealing requirements Fanatastic - thanks Slap - puts the shove method into some perspective Damo

So his tournament equity is (1/2)*$50 + (1/3)*$30 + (1/6)*$20, or just over $38. So he has only gained about $13 in tournament equity, not much more than half what he risked losing. So to make it worthwhile to get into an all-in confrontation, you need to be about a 2-1 on favourite. The consistent winners are the two players who aren't involved in the confrontation. Their tournament equity increases by about $6, from $25 to $31, with no risk.