Low to Mid Pair Help Needed

[Belly77]

Had a bit of trouble playing my lower powers at the moment on the 9seater STT's. I never raise if I have say a 22,33,44,55 but like to pay a minimum to see the flop. My main problem at the moment is that I never know whether to raise with say a 66,77,88,99. Hellmuth tells me to shove with any pair above 77 but in a big field I find this hard to do. You are usually going to get at least one caller and I get very nervous if I don't hit the flop and my oppenent raises. Below are a few hands that have got to me today. I'm Bell007. The first one I've had a real shocker and played the hand terribly. It was the first hand of the tournament though so I am always a bit edgey until I get a feel for who the bully is going to be. Table '35488977 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: issac12 (1500 in chips) Seat 2: hatzie (1500 in chips) Seat 3: jcm369 (1500 in chips) Seat 4: chuwanash (1500 in chips) Seat 5: hew44 (1500 in chips) Seat 6: ILE76 (1500 in chips) Seat 7: wphil1 (1500 in chips) Seat 8: shaji323 (1500 in chips) Seat 9: Bell007 (1500 in chips) hatzie: posts small blind 10 jcm369: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Bell007 [6c 6s] chuwanash: folds hew44: folds ILE76: folds wphil1: folds shaji323: calls 20 Bell007: calls 20 issac12: folds hatzie: calls 10 jcm369: checks *** FLOP *** [9s 7s Jc] hatzie: bets 60 jcm369: folds shaji323: calls 60 Bell007: folds *** TURN *** [9s 7s Jc] [6d] hatzie: bets 60 shaji323: calls 60 *** RIVER *** [9s 7s Jc 6d] [6h] hatzie: bets 100 shaji323: calls 100 *** SHOW DOWN *** hatzie: shows [9h Ad] (two pair, Nines and Sixes) shaji323: shows [Th Jh] (two pair, Jacks and Sixes) shaji323 collected 520 from pot This one came about three hands later Table '35488977 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: issac12 (1260 in chips) Seat 2: hatzie (1970 in chips) Seat 3: jcm369 (1210 in chips) Seat 4: chuwanash (1440 in chips) Seat 5: hew44 (1180 in chips) Seat 6: ILE76 (1510 in chips) Seat 7: wphil1 (1710 in chips) Seat 8: shaji323 (1760 in chips) Seat 9: Bell007 (1460 in chips) shaji323: posts small blind 10 Bell007: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Bell007 [8d 8h] issac12: folds hatzie: calls 20 jcm369: folds chuwanash: folds hew44: folds ILE76: calls 20 wphil1: folds shaji323: calls 10 Bell007: checks *** FLOP *** [7c Qh Th] shaji323: checks Bell007: checks hatzie: checks ILE76: bets 60 shaji323: folds Bell007: calls 60 hatzie is disconnected hatzie is connected hatzie: calls 60 *** TURN *** [7c Qh Th] [5c] Bell007: bets 60 hatzie: calls 60 ILE76: raises 60 to 120 Bell007: folds hatzie: calls 60 *** RIVER *** [7c Qh Th 5c] [2d] hatzie: checks ILE76: checks *** SHOW DOWN *** hatzie: shows [Jc Ts] (a pair of Tens) ILE76: shows [Qc 8c] (a pair of Queens) ILE76 collected 560 from pot Another 5 hands or so later I get this Table '35488977 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: issac12 (1000 in chips) Seat 2: hatzie (1735 in chips) Seat 3: jcm369 (1105 in chips) Seat 4: chuwanash (1530 in chips) Seat 6: ILE76 (1900 in chips) Seat 7: wphil1 (1595 in chips) Seat 8: shaji323 (3310 in chips) Seat 9: Bell007 (1325 in chips) shaji323: posts small blind 15 Bell007: posts big blind 30 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Bell007 [Jd Jc] issac12: calls 30 hatzie: calls 30 jcm369: calls 30 chuwanash: folds ILE76: raises 30 to 60 wphil1: raises 30 to 90 shaji323: folds Bell007: calls 60 issac12: folds hatzie: calls 60 jcm369: folds ILE76: calls 30 *** FLOP *** [9c 5s Qs] Bell007: bets 90 hatzie: folds ILE76: folds wphil1: raises 1415 to 1505 and is all-in Bell007: folds wphil1 collected 615 from pot Having looked back at these hands I'm actually pretty embarrassed to put them up here. I think I should have taken down at least one of the pots. The thing that really put me off was folding the 66 on the flop and seeing the turn and river produce 6's. It really threw me and I couldn't get it out of my head. Please help me by telling me your honest opinions. I don't mind if you give me both barrells so don't hold back.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Low to Mid Pair Help Needed Firstly take a look at the positives from the first 2 hands: 1) On both occasions when you folded you were behind. 2) Despite the fact that it cost you some chips, it was only a few chips, and you picked up some information about your opponents particularly hatzie (who likes to see cheap flops and is willing to go to a showdown without the top pair). 3) On no occasion did you show your cards. You have bet, called and folded in various positions in the game - therefore what kind of read do you think your opponents have on you? I suspect they don't currently, they still need to see more in order for them to judge you, therefore, how can you use that to your advantage? I disagree that you played the first one terribly. You weren't first into the pot (in my book first in should raise nearly every time), so a call to see a cheap flop is fine. 3 over cards on the flop and you fold to a 66% pot bet which is already called by another player. There's also a potential flush on the flop so you IMO made a good call and folded. Forget the turn and river card. I actually think it was the second had you played badly. 3 limpers and you have pocket 8's on the BB. I would suggest here raising it up about 4x BB. this shows them a strong hand, and, you are likely to be the first to bet post flop meaning that you can put in a continuation bet displaying more strength. Anyone calling both of those has got a good hand or is a muppet. The flop on the second hand is actually a great flop for a continuation bet as it's got high cards, straight and flush draws making it difficult for you opponents to put you on a hand. Your play in the third hand is OK. In the face of 2 raises in front of you (and the predictable call from hatzie again) I would be only calling here. Post flop you bet to find out where you are in the hand and facing the All In it's a simple fold for you. One other general comment if I may be so bold, and this is purely based on what you've written here so could be very wrong. But you seem very caught up with playing the cards you're dealt and not playing the other players at your table. I think the second hand is an example of that. In the face of 3 limpers I believe a lot of players would be raising on the BB whatever cards they've got. They would sense weakness and be prepared to lose a few chips to a re raise if necessary, particularly since they'd know they are in early position and thus can put in a continuation bet if it gets to that stage. I often find that if I see myself doing something similar I pretend I'm playing in a PL game and have been dealt 72o. It's amazing how many times that a simple suitable bet pre flop works with that hand. Why? Becuase your only concerned with the size of the bet and bluffing everyone off of the hand.

[viggosen]

Re: Low to Mid Pair Help Needed First hand fine, you see a cheap flop with a small pair, miss and fold to a potseizebet, what comes after the flop doesn´t change that. Second hand, fine preflop, doN´t like your flop play, an 8 might gives you a set, but big risc that it will give somebody else a straight, so you only have the 3 outs (9 to the straight, with no flush possible on the board), if you where only 2 in the pot, its ok to call, and make some kind of move later, but calling with 2 overcards and a straight draws/flushdraws outthere in a 3 way pot, is a mistake in my opinion. I hate your turn bet too, whats the point? its so small that it wont force anybody away. Same problem in last hand, with an overcard on the flop your hand is usually not good. Further a gayraise and gayreraise preflop is suspicious, one of those idiots probably have AA/KK, anyway your JJ is no good, just fold, no reason to waste more money. In general I doN´t like your play with small bets into 3-4 way pots with underpairs, If I have an underpair to the flop, I only bet in 2 way pots, and then I make a bet that put my opponent to the test, a ½-1 potseize bet, in a 3-4 way pot there is to big risc that 1 of your opponents have a hand, and a bet of 1/4-1/5 of the pot wont force any opponent out if he got anything at all (draw or under pair)

[GaF]

Re: Low to Mid Pair Help Needed No argumaents with the first hand - despite the fact you hit quads, folding was the right thing to do :ok 2nd hand - You took a cheap flop, missed the flop and should have folded post flop IMO. 3rd Hand, two ways you can play this - pre flop you treated it as a drawing hand though, not a made hand - fair enough - as soon as you missed the flop though, again yopu had to be prepared to let it go - with no specific info on your opponents you have to assume one of them is holding the Q. Agree with Viggo's point - if you have an underpair with 3 or 4 opponents you are basically bluffing as someone probably has a bigger hand ..... and you shouldn't be bluffing that many opponents without more information.....

[robilaruk]

Re: Low to Mid Pair Help Needed spot on in every case PF except....... why bet/call hand 2? why bet that last flop? its been min raise & min reraise and you have missed the flop? just check and hope its checked around BTW ignore the 6's - correct move every day of the week - it happens and more to the point, you call and miss and then call again on the turn and miss the river, that is 95% of the time what would happen with 66 let it go and move on Damo Please help me by telling me your honest opinions. I don't mind if you give me both barrells so don't hold back.

[robilaruk]

Re: Low to Mid Pair Help Needed I wouldn't raise here with 88 - you are likely to get 2 callers at least and probably all 3 so without an 8 hitting you are in trouble - the limps and blinds are not worth winning yet - make it 50/100 and you having only 1100 chips or so and its a shove for me as there is over a third of your stack in the middle up for grabs Just limp, hope it comes A82 rainbow and be glad that at least one of the wombles is limping Ace small and is going to be giving you all his chips :) Damo In the face of 3 limpers I believe a lot of players would be raising on the BB whatever cards they've got. They would sense weakness and be prepared to lose a few chips to a re raise if necessary, particularly since they'd know they are in early position and thus can put in a continuation bet if it gets to that stage. I often find that if I see myself doing something similar I pretend I'm playing in a PL game and have been dealt 72o. It's amazing how many times that a simple suitable bet pre flop works with that hand. Why? Becuase your only concerned with the size of the bet and bluffing everyone off of the hand.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: Low to Mid Pair Help Needed I agree with Rob. No point writing a reply cos itd just say the same stuff.

[Belly77]

Re: Low to Mid Pair Help Needed Thanks for this. Don't know if it's coincidence but I won my next tournament with 88. Thanks for the advice.