Struggling

[2damnhype]

Been working up to this thread for the last couple of weeks, and apologies but it more about getting things off my chest, but any advice is appreciated (including any calls for me to jack in :) ) Have been playing online for about the last 18 months. Started off playing pretty much exclusively on Paddy Power, micro STTs then onto $3 / $5 and a few $10. Was doing okay, kept records of games played and results. I then started downloading other clients, getting involved in the PL games, managed to have a couple of good finishes in freerolls to put $300 in my neteller account. Haven't really used that money, have made a couple of deposits and a couple of withdrawls so its still around the $300 mark. A couple of months ago i felt that i was spending my (restricted) poker time chasing around different sites for free cash and not really concentrating on what i was playing, I wanted to restrict my playing to more or less a couple of sites (Poker.co.uk, Paddy Power) and get back to playing the STTs. So when threads were posted for the tracking spreadsheet and Staffy and Hodgys STT challenges I decided it was time to give it a go. I am currently 30 STT into my experiment and am getting murdered, I have won 2, finished 2nd once and 3rd once. I dont multitable and i dont get the opportunity to play every night, so for me this represents a 3 week run. I know its only a small sample and things should/will turn around, assuming i am not a complete muppet, but Christ it is frustrating, if i end up in situations where its overcards v pocket pairs then it doesn't seem to matter which side of the equation i start on, i always end up on the losing one!! Or I get things like this:

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Hand Start.

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 1 : notyuh has $1,555

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 3 : OutsideEdge has $2,520

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 4 : CHOMPSnROX has $2,210

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 5 : soxman41 has $2,270

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 6 : 2damnhype has $2,220

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 7 : laban123 has $1,240

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 8 : eamobud has $3,510

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 9 : Ace's Lacey has $2,475

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : laban123 is the dealer.

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : eamobud posted small blind.

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Ace's Lacey posted big blind.

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Game [18] started with 8 players.

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Dealing Hole Cards.

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 6 : 2damnhype has 7d 6d

[Jul 17 22:55:30] : notyuh folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:30] : Stakes: 50/100 Current level: 3 Next level in: 6 min.

[Jul 17 22:55:39] : OutsideEdge called 100

[Jul 17 22:55:42] : CHOMPSnROX called 100

[Jul 17 22:55:42] : soxman41 folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:45] : 2damnhype called 100

[Jul 17 22:55:48] : laban123 folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:49] : eamobud called 50

[Jul 17 22:55:50] : Stakes: 50/100 Current level: 3 Next level in: 6 min.

[Jul 17 22:55:53] : Ace's Lacey checked.

[Jul 17 22:55:53] : Dealing flop.

[Jul 17 22:55:53] : Board cards [6s 4c 7c]

[Jul 17 22:55:27] : eamobud checked.

[Jul 17 22:55:29] : Ace's Lacey checked.

[Jul 17 22:55:34] : OutsideEdge bet 500

[Jul 17 22:55:41] : Stakes: 50/100 Current level: 3 Next level in: 6 min.

[Jul 17 22:55:49] : CHOMPSnROX has 10 seconds to respond.

[Jul 17 22:55:52] : CHOMPSnROX folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:54] : 2damnhype called 500

[Jul 17 22:55:55] : eamobud folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:55] : Ace's Lacey folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:55] : Dealing turn.

[Jul 17 22:55:55] : Board cards [6s 4c 7c 9s]

[Jul 17 22:56:28] : OutsideEdge bet 1,920 and is All-in

[Jul 17 22:56:30] : 2damnhype called 1,620 and is All-in

[Jul 17 22:56:30] : Showdown!

[Jul 17 22:56:30] : Seat 6 : 2damnhype has 7d 6d

[Jul 17 22:56:31] : Stakes: 50/100 Current level: 3 Next level in: 5 min.

[Jul 17 22:56:32] : Seat 3 : OutsideEdge has 4d As

[Jul 17 22:56:32] : Seat 6 : 2damnhype has 7d 6d

[Jul 17 22:56:37] : Board cards [6s 4c 7c 9s Ah]

[Jul 17 22:56:37] : Seat 3 : OutsideEdge has 4d As

[Jul 17 22:56:37] : OutsideEdge has Two Pair: Aces and 4s

[Jul 17 22:56:37] : Seat 6 : 2damnhype has 7d 6d

[Jul 17 22:56:37] : 2damnhype has Two Pair: 7s and 6s

[Jul 17 22:56:37] : OutsideEdge wins 4,740 with Two Pair: Aces and 4s

[Jul 17 22:56:41] : 2damnhype : ffs

[Jul 17 22:56:44] : OutsideEdge : yep

[Jul 17 22:56:47] : CHOMPSnROX : lol

[Jul 17 22:56:47] : Hand is over.

I must stress my comment in the chatbox is totally out of character, but this hand made up my mind that i would make this post. Any way thanks for listening (or should that be reading!!) and I hope to be able to report healthier figures based on the advice given. :ok

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling which stakes are you playing?? I know for a fact that you WILL get more bad beats when you play low stakes... because more muppets are in them and they will call everything with crap hands and often get lucky. Therefore, play higher stakes!! And play VERY tight to begin with... losen up later on, when people start to leave the table. Don't play hands unless they are good enough to raise preflop!! I am not posting this following bit to brag!!!! BUT... I always play $ 50 ten seat stt's on sporting odds. Starting stack 2000. Playing like above... I almost always end up in the money. STT's are VERY different from MTT's IMO. In STT's it's all about survival untill 3 is left... In MTT's it's all about getting more and more chips... taking chances and hoping to benefit from it. You don't have to take too many chances to make it in the stt's... You just have to survive... :ok

[hayward2k]

Re: Struggling I

[hayward2k]

Re: Struggling I'd second everything Pene's said. Top advice! :ok

[AJ]

Re: Struggling found this on 2+2 a while back, and it's helped me.

ok quick lesson on low limit speed: Stay super duper tight until the blinds get to 100/200. Play only AK AQ AA KK QQ JJ. Also try and see cheap flops with any PP (never pay more than 10% of your stack). Then once the blinds get bigger you can loosen up A BIT. Not alot, because your still playing with idiots. But you can try to steal some blinds if you are in postion, and dont be afraid to push all in if your certain you can buy the pot. Basically, just stay solid. Also, when playing str8 draws and flush draws you should not bet them, try and see cheap cards. Alot of people read super system and just push every flush draw or str8 draw or whatever. I dont know much about cash games but in a low limit STT i find its best that WHEN YOU DONT HAVE A MADE HAND, DONT PUT YOURSELF IN A POSITION FOR ALL YOUR CHIPS. I dont know if alot of people are going to disagree with me here but i have ben playing 6$ turbos on stars for about 6 weeks now and have held an ROI of about 40% over about 1100 games.

[AJ]

Re: Struggling One other comment, I've just read the hand you posted

[Jul 17 22:55:28] : Seat 6 : 2damnhype has 7d 6d

[Jul 17 22:55:30] : notyuh folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:30] : Stakes: 50/100 Current level: 3 Next level in: 6 min.

[Jul 17 22:55:39] : OutsideEdge called 100

[Jul 17 22:55:42] : CHOMPSnROX called 100

[Jul 17 22:55:42] : soxman41 folded.

[Jul 17 22:55:45] : 2damnhype called 100

7 6 even suited is a instant fold, you can check if you're on the BB, but you paid 100 chips to see the flop.

[Jul 17 22:55:55] : Board cards [6s 4c 7c 9s]

[Jul 17 22:56:28] : OutsideEdge bet 1,920 and is All-in

[Jul 17 22:56:30] : 2damnhype called 1,620 and is All-in

This is a very bad call, what did you put him on, looking at the board, there is a several possible straight out there as made hands. Plus flush draws for two suits. Best case scenario I'd put him on two pair, one of which being nines, given he pushed after the 9 came out. More likely I'd put him on three 9's. Whatever way you cut it, your two low pair aren't going to hold up. (I know you were really ahead at this point, because he had a A4, but that's cause he's a total ****wit; you'd have to assume he's not and fold based on the cards) Not having a go, but I don't think this is an example of bad luck, I do think you played this hand very badly. Need to tighten up a lot

[Cloud]

Re: Struggling I would say that you should just keep going and plugging away. If you did OK at this level in the past, then there is no reason for that to change - things will turn around. After I downloaded the spreadsheet - the first 5 games I played I finished outside the top 5, and every time I put chips in I was getting beat. I didn't play an STT for 3 or 4 days (because I was so annoyed) , and now I'm showing a profit again - and things have turned around. With regards to the example hand - you were unlucky (although like foolsgold I have issues with the way you played it), but you did get it right - when the chips were down, you were ahead - in the long run you'll do OK doing that. You did mention about overcards v pocket pairs - and always being on the wrong side. You might want to look at those situations and try to avoid them. At these levels, you probably don't want to be involved in coinflips, you're better than the opposition - so you want to lower the variance. Tightening up your starting hands could help this. Personally I wouldn't advocate moving up financially - with a bankroll of around $300 - I'd be playing $10 max. Any higher and a bad run will wipe you out. Good Luck.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling If its any consolation I mamanged to rack up a 17 STT losing run. Most of those I was all in a 2/1 or more favourite, or unlucky enough to walk right into AA anytime I picked up KK. Sometimes the laws of probability just smack you in the face like that. However provided you are playing within your financial means, and most importantly having fun, try not to let yourself be too disheartened by short term blips. And also remember that so called bad beats are a rarity. True bad beats. Like having top pair catch a runner runner full house after you set second set. Getting your money all in a 2/1 favourite is always handy, but your still gonna bust out a third of the time. 33%. This being the case you will likely have quite high varience if you like to get it all in preflop with things like AK or JJ. Nothing wrong with humping it all in, just be mindfull that youll need a bank roll that can withstand about 20 straight losses.

[PokerBarney]

Re: Struggling Variance.. coupled with loose/passive/weak plays like the hand you posted will kill your bankroll in no time. If you're going to limp with SOOOTED connectors (they're not as great as you think), you MUST bet if you hit the flop. I don't mind the limp so much, as you're in late position with an average stack, and if you think you can take it away from the others then fine. When you hit a coordinated flop like that, with multiple straight/flush draws, and lots of limpers (probably limping small-medium pairs), you MUST raise to find out where you are. Your weak calls means OutsideEdge tried to steal on the turn, then got lucky. However, if you raise him on the flop (probably a push actually, based on his bet/pot/stack sizes), then you can lead the turn and he will have to fold since the 9 didn't improve him. Posting hand histories is a great way to improve your game.

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

I'd second everything Pene's said. Top advice! :ok

Now... Hayward is REALLY on to something :loon :clap :clap I loooove when people agree with me :tongue2

[2damnhype]

Re: Struggling In my defence i don't tend to play low suited connectors, and when the flop came I saw his pot sized bet as an attempt to pinch the pot, in hindsight irrespective of the turn and river, I appreciate that just calling the bet was the wrong thing to do. have no intention of moving up stakes!! i am still enjoying playing, and am playing within my bankroll, but i know what you are saying about tightening up and avoiding the flip situations, just that the longer the bad run (or play) goes on the more the urge to force the issue - which can only make things worse! cheers for the input so far :clap

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

Personally I wouldn't advocate moving up financially - with a bankroll of around $300 - I'd be playing $10 max. Any higher and a bad run will wipe you out.

See... here lies the difference. Most players choose their buy in, in order to suit their bankroll. I choose my buy in to suit the kind of game I want to play, the kind of game I know I can win... and believe it or not... it is hard to beat call-stations/muppets ... and there are A LOT of them in the small buy in STT's So... forget bankroll... and choose your kind of Poker game instead!!

[Chewie2000]

Re: Struggling I agreee with Pen.. (2 times in a row huh Pen).. bankroll is important but with STT's you get what you pay for. I don't try and go lower than $10... but a quick tip for you try a couple of $20 on poker.co.uk... they are a potential gold mine if u can stay tight enough. gl... we all go thru these patches your not alone

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling Just to second my earlier advise about choosing your game according to Poker game and not Bankroll: That is exactly why I don't play freerolls... because it is not a decent poker game... people call with anything!! I started playing online poker July last year. After 3 months I played 2 $ 100 MTT's on SO Around 40-50 entrants... made it to 2nd the first time and just in the money the second time. I know it is a lot of money for a buy in... BUT... it is VERY possible to make it to the big money!!! VERY POSSIBLE... Because it is such a real and decent Poker Game when you play higher stakes.

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

I agreee with Pen.. (2 times in a row huh Pen)..

Oh my god, Chewie.... ??? :loon

[AJ]

Re: Struggling

So... forget bankroll... and choose your kind of Poker game instead!!

Whilst I see Pene's point, you got have the cash to back it up. I think about my football betting here, I seek value on lowish priced home wins. I'd never stake more than 5% of my bankroll on a single match. Same with STT's when playing for the long term, for me it's no more than 5% of bankroll on a single tournement, I'd suggest not looking at a move up, until you have 20 x buy in at the new level

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

Same with STT's when playing for the long term, for me it's no more than 5% of bankroll on a single tournement

Alright then... 5% must be ... $ 15 buy in then :D ... gooo oooon 2damnhype :clap And oooops... just noticed "playing for the long term" :unsure I am not good at that... I want to see $... quick :nana :nana

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling And... I guess it all adds up to my bankroll as well... My bankroll is never below $ 700 or 800... so... $ 50 buy in is acceptable according to bankroll aswell. AND... another thing... I think it is VERY important that you don't view your money in your bankroll as REAL money... they are just figures, figures to invest!! They become real money when you withdraw it, never before!

[Masterplan]

Re: Struggling my worst record atm is 14 stt's without a win, and only 2 placings in the spell. not as bad as dave's 17 losses ... but for me .. thats pretty bad

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

my worst record atm is 14 stt's without a win' date=' and only 2 placings in the spell. not as bad as dave's 17 losses ... but for me .. thats pretty bad[/quote'] Again... hard to make a steady profit on small buy in stt's... way too many muppets. Just TRY 5 games... play higher stake, and see the difference :ok

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

Just to second my earlier advise about choosing your game according to Poker game and not Bankroll: ................ My bankroll is never below $ 700 or 800... so... $ 50 buy in is acceptable according to bankroll aswell.

Mmm I think your logic is on the right track, but slightly flawed. Yes you should absoloutly play the game you can beat, and just because you have $20000 in your acount doesnt mean you should be playing $1000 simply cos you can afford to. You still, as you say, have to be able to beat the game. However if you have $200 in your account, you definatly shouldnt be playing $50. It is entirely possible, and infact quite likely, that you will go 4 games without making it to cash. Now if that happens and you bust out and you are prepared to deposit more funds to continue to play then what happens is your bank account becomes part of your bankroll, on top of what ever happens to be in your account. This being the case you can be properly bankrolled for $50 IF the $200 in your account doesnt represent the sum total of what your prepared to invest. However if busting that $200 means you can never play poker again (or at least for some months / years till you can re-roll yourself then you are taking a substantial risk by playing in tournaments when you cant suffer more than 4-10 beats.

[Masterplan]

Re: Struggling

Again... hard to make a steady profit on small buy in stt's... way too many muppets. Just TRY 5 games... play higher stake, and see the difference :ok

as soon as my current $300 bankroll reaches $400 ... i MIGHT try a $20 ... until it hits $1000 i wont touch a $50, i'm quite used to playing against muppets now :)

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

as soon as my current $300 bankroll reaches $400 ... i MIGHT try a $20 ... until it hits $1000 i wont touch a $50' date=' i'm quite used to playing against muppets now :)[/quote'] What I like so much about the $ 50 and $ 100 stt's is the fact that I get 2000 chips instead of 1500... Gives me plenty of time to sit around and wait... play tight... and then strike at the right time :ok

[Masterplan]

Re: Struggling i'm used to play at vc(tribeca) every tourny has 2000 starting chips ... it really doesnt make all that difference if the standard of play is still poor

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

Mmm I think your logic is on the right track, but slightly flawed. Yes you should absoloutly play the game you can beat, and just because you have $20000 in your acount doesnt mean you should be playing $1000 simply cos you can afford to. You still, as you say, have to be able to beat the game. However if you have $200 in your account, you definatly shouldnt be playing $50. It is entirely possible, and infact quite likely, that you will go 4 games without making it to cash. Now if that happens and you bust out and you are prepared to deposit more funds to continue to play then what happens is your bank account becomes part of your bankroll, on top of what ever happens to be in your account. This being the case you can be properly bankrolled for $50 IF the $200 in your account doesnt represent the sum total of what your prepared to invest. However if busting that $200 means you can never play poker again (or at least for some months / years till you can re-roll yourself then you are taking a substantial risk by playing in tournaments when you cant suffer more than 4-10 beats.

I see your point. Luckily I was never in any of the above situations. I started my bankroll off at SO with a freeroll win July last year... $ 17... :nana And those $ 17 have grown and grown... so I have actually never deposited, due to some big MTT wins aswell... But I must still say. My bankroll HAVE been down to $ 200 at one point... and I kept on playing the $ 50... because I knew there was no way I wouldnt reach the money in 4 games, playing my usual strategy.

[Masterplan]

Re: Struggling

I see your point. Luckily I was never in any of the above situations. I started my bankroll off at SO with a freeroll win July last year... $ 17... :nana And those $ 17 have grown and grown... so I have actually never deposited, due to some big MTT wins aswell... But I must still say. My bankroll HAVE been down to $ 200 at one point... and I kept on playing the $ 50... because I knew there was no way I wouldnt reach the money in 4 games, playing my usual strategy.

showoff :p

[slapdash]

Re: Struggling

But I must still say. My bankroll HAVE been down to $ 200 at one point... and I kept on playing the $ 50... because I knew there was no way I wouldnt reach the money in 4 games, playing my usual strategy.

You don't need to lose four times in a row to lose a bankroll of four buy-ins. If you're considering a bankroll of N buy-ins, "how likely is it that I'll lose all the next N games?" is not the judgement you should be making. There are far more ways of losing it in a bad run interspersed with a few wins. If I start with £4 and keep rolling a dice with you (1 or 2 you win £1, 3-6 I win £1), then there's only a 1 in 81 chance that I'll lose my £4 by losing the first four throws, but there's a 1 in 16 chance that I'll lose it at some stage.

[Penelopeys]

Re: Struggling

You don't need to lose four times in a row to lose a bankroll of four buy-ins. If you're considering a bankroll of N buy-ins, "how likely is it that I'll lose all the next N games?" is not the judgement you should be making. There are far more ways of losing it in a bad run interspersed with a few wins. If I start with £4 and keep rolling a dice with you (1 or 2 you win £1, 3-6 I win £1), then there's only a 1 in 81 chance that I'll lose my £4 by losing the first four throws, but there's a 1 in 16 chance that I'll lose it at some stage.

Interesting theory. I am very familiar with probability due to my work and having maths as a hobby too. However... my poker game has absolutely nothing to do with probability :ok

[Valiant23]

Re: Struggling Whilst I understand Pene's point of view, it would be impossible for 2Damn to play a $50 STT, for the same reason it's impossible for me too. That $50 can buy (him) a pack of nappies, or a treat for his children or wife (he may even think that this could buy him a lapdance with her :tongue2). He will be thinking of this at some point during the STT, and be completely unable to play without fear! That, for me is crucial. Almost as important as the way he plays. Unfortunately, the way you play does leave something to be desired, and I think I know why.

A couple of months ago i felt that i was spending my (restricted) poker time chasing around different sites for free cash and not really concentrating on what i was playing

'Restricted poker time' means to me that when you sit down at a table, because it is a 'treat' for you, you aren't necessarily prepared to sit there and fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold. The problem hand you posted is an excellent example. You like suited connectors? Congratulations. I like Port Vale.......footballs' equivalent. :\ Now do I think that the mighty Valiants are going to the FA Cup final? Of course not, anymore than playing low suited connectors early on in an STT will get you to the money, and that (imo) is where your problem lies. For too long you have been playing whilst 'not concentrating on what you were playing'. You have had some excellent advice, regarding STT strategy, so tighten right up (almost rock-like) until the people start to leave, or the blinds start to get worth 'playing for'. Very early this morning I couldn't sleep, and played in a few PokerStars STT's, and with 4 players left (3 paid) I was the short-stack. Now with 4 players obviously the blinds go round very quickly, and as I couldn't afford to play anything other than my blinds and the really big hands I was put in a position where I had to gamble at some point. This came on my BB, when SB min. raised - now I knew this player was not bluffing, and that I was behind, but I called his raise with 56os. Why? Well I was on my way out, I'd sat patiently waiting for a hand which failed to arrive, and the way I saw it was if I folded now, then the next hand I had I was all in, I was able to call the raise and still be in the same position. If I didn't like the flop I could drop it. Flop came 6, 6, 2 and I cracked JJ, and one guy went apoplectic. Extremely lucky, I agree, but so is getting dealt AA, or AK, or KK etc... As regards the standard of play? Well I've never played on anything higher than a $20 STT, but I know that I can win at low level, my spreadsheet shows it, and I've posted up the stats on my blog. You're not a bad player 2Damn, just one lacking in confidence. Take a short break, let the advice on this thread soak in, then when the appetite to win returns, thats when you should. DOn't play for the sake of playing, play for the sake of winning. Good luck. :ok

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Struggling

You like suited connectors? Congratulations. I like Port Vale.......footballs' equivalent.

An interesting analogy. One I shall extend further. There is nothing wrong with seeing Port Vale play, so long as you can get in cheap (Compared to say AArsenal), and you already know a few of your mates are comming in as well. You never know sometimes they win 4-0. Just have the good sense to leave early and beat the traffic if your 2-0 down with ten men. Im sure you can all draw the parallels there :)