Guest gazza271 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Right folks, A weak part of my MTT game is the mid section. To start with I am normally tighter than a ducks arse and frequently double/treble up when i play the premium hands. In tonights Virgin PL WSOP league game I lost a big chunk of my chips to Davanjala with the following hand; PLgazza posts the large blind 100.00 uberpl1 posts the small blind 50.00 uberpl1: --, -- PLgazza: 8d, Jc Davanjala1: --, -- *eltrev*: --, -- teaulc1: --, -- Drousy: --, -- cadzow: --, -- melanie_j: --, -- PLjolly67: --, -- slapdash1: --, -- Pre-flop: Davanjala1: Call 100.00 *eltrev*: Fold teaulc1: Fold Drousy: Call 100.00 cadzow: Fold melanie_j: Fold PLjolly67: Fold slapdash1: Fold uberpl1: Fold PLgazza: Check Flop (Board: 9c, 10h, Qs): PLgazza: Bet 400.00 Davanjala1: Call 400.00 Drousy: Fold Turn (Board: 9c, 10h, Qs, 10d): PLgazza: Bet 600.00 Davanjala1: Call 600.00 River (Board: 9c, 10h, Qs, 10d, Js): PLgazza: Bet 300.00 Davanjala1: Call 300.00 Showdown: PLgazza shows: 8d, Jc (straight to the Queen) Davanjala1 shows: Qh, Kd (straight to the King) Mainpot: Davanjala1 wins the pot of 2950 with straight to the King (0.00 rake were taken for this hand) At this stage there was about 40 people still in. I was on the BB so saw the flop cheaply and flopped a straight. You can see how the hand went from above. Should i have bet bigger ? Should i have layed it down at some point ? Your views/criticisms of how i played the hand are welcome, For me its all part of the learning curve :ok I should also add that i never really recovered from it and with the blinds going up I went out in 36th (i think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis I can't see anything wrong with your play you just got unlucky. If you'd been second to act instead of first you could of played it differently but you've played this pretty much text book. You got lucky to catch the straight and have somebody with a hand to call with then got unlucky on the river. You could of lost a lot more if you'd played it badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis I thought you played it well - opponent just got very lucky. There was no accounting for his hand - he played it very badly and got away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis Sorry, I disagree. Blinds at 50/100. You get a free-flop and hit the 2nd nuts. A bet of 4xBB (400) after no pre-flop raise suggests to me you've hit top pr, and maybe mid or even a strong kicker, and Davanjala really can't fold can he? I understand the 10 that paired the board may make you worried about Q 10, but again the bet I feel was not strong enough. After the river you should have been happy to check it down. I think bets weren't strong enough for me to shake him off, and there was enough to keep him interested in the next card for what you were 'charging' to see it. I think a stronger bet on the flop and all in on the turn would have possibly been my play. If Dav (Tweety Pie) called with TPTK then you could accuse him of poor play. Not disastrous play on your part though. I had similar, where I flopped 2 pair - top and bottom, but 3 diamonds. I charged (imo) a lot, but not enough for teaulc to see the turn and the river, and he caught his 4th diamond ( I assume :\ ). He put me all in on the river and I had to fold.:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis Sorry MrV - disagree strongly. Post flop, the multiple to BB is irrelevent - The bet is 400 into a pot of 350 - A BIGGER THAN POT SIZED BET!!!! That is a huge bet, especially with a hand that strong!! It was a rainbow flop too - I would argue the bet should have been smaller to encourage some action!! IMO, just unlucky Gazza...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masterplan Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis i can see all the points of view here, personally i would go with the 350 bet on the flop, (400 just looks like you're bluffing) then all in on the turn, at least that is how i normally play my bottom end straight flops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis I'm not going to comment on the specific hand, but the problem with hand analysis is this...when you are playing the game, you get a feel for the opponents you are up against, their style of play. Could they be on a tilt?, are they as tight as a kipper's bum?, do they raise with every hand?, are they muppets or Gods of poker play?, did they bluff you earlier on or even last month?. Just exactly how you ''feel'' about your adversary, at that precise moment in time, can have as much affect on your play as the cards themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis You are right Dodger - I am reading the play from the opponents point of view - and from the initial thread I have presumed that Gazza had been playing "tighter than a ducks arse". That's why I said that the opponent played it so badly. However in an MTT it is hard to know if you've been on the same table as your opponent for a while - or it could have been the first hand you've played together. Personally I think the call of 600 by him after the turn was a real bad call anyway, and why no raise after the river - after your relatively weak but correct bet of 300 after the river. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis Sorry MrV - disagree strongly. Post flop, the multiple to BB is irrelevent - The bet is 400 into a pot of 350 - A BIGGER THAN POT SIZED BET!!!! That is a huge bet, especially with a hand that strong!! It was a rainbow flop too - I would argue the bet should have been smaller to encourage some action!! IMO, just unlucky Gazza...... Agree. Gazza was something like an 85% favourite after the flop and after the turn. He didn't want to get Davanjala to fold; he wanted to get him to put as much money in the pot as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewie2000 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis The only thing I would have done would have bet the turn a lot more aggresively. The etexture of the board changed dramatically there and if they have hit there 10 they would call and u just have to dodge the boat. And I agree with Valiant I would have been happy with a check down at the river (huge scare card). I had a hand very similar to this at the weekend in a £100 live envent flopping 2nd nut straight with Q9 suited, exactly same happened the turn paired the board and I bet the pot x 1.5 and got called river gave the possibilty of higher str8 with one card but got checked down he turned trips and I turned str8. but as always the "heat" of the moment does different thing to different people and IMHO if your happy with your play tis coo... just put it in the memory bank and wait for the situation to come up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweetypie05 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis Hey Gazza, Nothing wrong with your play... not entirely sure why I called but then it was that sort of night for me... :sad I had some chips and felt like playing... like a muppet!:\ I put you on maybe middle pair or a drawing hand with an aggressive bet... not the nut straight. When the second 10 fell on the turn I thought I was well behind but the bet was not large enough so I could afford to call. I had the wrong odds but did not think you had better than trips (wrong)... could have been a semi-bluff (wrong) and if a Q or J turned up...well... I'd probably call an all-in! The final bet on the river was not enough to deter me... a larger bet might have seen me off! Not your fault mate. Good bets throughout. I think the key in some respects is that I felt I could afford to lose the chips and the odds I was getting weren't awful... even if incorrect... SORRY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gazza271 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis Hey Gazza, Nothing wrong with your play... not entirely sure why I called but then it was that sort of night for me... :sad I had some chips and felt like playing... like a muppet!:\ I put you on maybe middle pair or a drawing hand with an aggressive bet... not the nut straight. When the second 10 fell on the turn I thought I was well behind but the bet was not large enough so I could afford to call. I had the wrong odds but did not think you had better than trips (wrong)... could have been a semi-bluff (wrong) and if a Q or J turned up...well... I'd probably call an all-in! The final bet on the river was not enough to deter me... a larger bet might have seen me off! Not your fault mate. Good bets throughout. I think the key in some respects is that I felt I could afford to lose the chips and the odds I was getting weren't awful... even if incorrect... SORRY! Hey mate no need to apologise, thats poker !!! Was interested in other peoples thoughts and getting some good feedback re betting harder pre-flop. Maybe an all in would have scared you off at that point and i would have kept the blinds. As stated i had you on a pair,possibly 2 pair so wanted some money in the pot. My weak river bet was the sudden "oh shit have they got the Q" :\ Several different views on how the hand was played/should have been played and thats great to see other peoples thoughts and as i said, to me thats all part of my learning curve. On another point, a few hands later i was dealt A9d and folded. Bearing in mind i was now getting short on chips how would people have dealt with that hand, all in ? fold ? raise 3-4BB ? This is where my game needs the biggest improvement, would anyone have played that hand ? What sort of hand/bets would you all play at that time ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewie2000 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis With a full table, A9 is an easy one.. Id fold every day of the week... any call u get is either gonna be an A with a better kicker or pair or at least one over card. I very rarely push with Ace rag short stacked unless Ive dropped under the magic 5x BB and the BB is approaching rapidly. Now with a short table its different again... but I'll leave that for the rest of the group to decide :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Re: Hand Analysis A9 late on in an MTT when the blinds are large are a large bet/All In for me (depends on my chip stack v everyone else's). Early on in an MTT at best it is a limp in hand. You say you were mid tournament and short stacked, the decision is really then based on position. Late position and no callers it's an All in hand and hope to steal the blinds or double up. Late postion and a number of callers or even a raise is much tougher and then is dependant upon who has called/raised e.g. chip leader who wants to see every flop. Short stacked at any stage of the tournament my decision is always based on "Am I prepared to go all in (if I have to) with this hand?". If the answer is no then fold it. I don't know if this helps or not - hope it does get you thinking. DP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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