Another query on play

[WorkingForTheEnemy]

I was playing in the $4000 guarenteed touny at Betfair. Around 20 people left. Blinds were 1000/2000. I was dealt QJ offsuit. One guy calls all in with 7000 chips, me and one other(before me) calls. Flop comes down rainbow with 3 rags. First caller checks. I assumed he had nothing so put in a 4000 raise to try and push him off the pot, believing I also may be beating him with the high card.He folds.(Both had around 50,000 chips by the way) The all-in player turns over 66 and wins the pot. Now this started a 10 min moan from another player saying, with no sidepot, unless I caught something I should have checked to the river as it meant there was more chance of the all-in going out with 3 players in the pot. My theory was if I pushed out the other player, I had 16.66% better chance of taking the pot. With his stack and the size of blinds he could have called with near anything and I could have been leading despite holding nothing myself. My aim is to put myself in the best position to win, not to sneak up a position or two. The player arguing was saying that at that stage of a tourney the first aim should be to make sure others go out and I made the chances of that worse. At the final table it might be worth sneaking up 1 position or two but at the stage we were the next 10 positions all paid the same anyway. My aim was to put myself in a winning position. The call didnt cost me any chips and if I had been called it only cost $4000. Was it really such a bad play and what do others think is priority at that stage of tourneys. P.S What was even worse was after I went out I viewed the table for a while and the player was still going on about it for 10 mins after Id left.

[guesswest]

Re: Another query on play I would say it's probably a bad play, but not for the reasons your opponent was bitching about. Having caught nothing on the flop it's hard to imagine your queen high would be ahead of the all in player, he's most likely going to have a pair or a bigger overcard. That means that you either get the fold and win nothing (unless you catch), or even worse you get called and lose even more. But it's not a bad play in terms of failing to gang up on the shortstack, the only situation in which it would be is the bubble in a satellite, but as you're playing to finish as high as possible you shouldn't give up positive expectation in order to eliminate a shortstack. In fact, if you're well stacked yourself, it can be advantageous to keep shortstacks in play just before the final table - you can often pick up more chips with steals shorthanded than you would by taking coinflips or even slightly favourable bets to eliminate a shortstack to get to final table.

[WorkingForTheEnemy]

Re: Another query on play Thanks guess. Yes, my question was more aimed not so much at the play but the theory of going 3 way pot to take out a player or give myself 50/50 chance of picking up the pot.

[laidbackbloke]

Re: Another query on play I have to say that its not something that I've ever thought about. But any time I have been in that situation (If I though I could be winning) I have always tried to either get more money in the pot or knock my opponents out of the pot so that I am left up aginst the all-in. I can understand where they guy was coming from - teaming up to have a better chance of getting rid of 1 player- But personally I don't see any great advantage for me in making one of my opponents stronger by giving them a free go at winning the pot, I'd rather have a short stack on the table than a strengthened opponent. As guesswest said, the only situation I can see it being a particularly advantageous tactic is if you were on the buble of a satelite and eliminating the short stack would see everyone qualify.

[dave]

Re: Another query on play Bluffing into an empty pot (which is what you were doing, as you didn't hold even a pair) is really not a play that you should make IMO - high risk, low reward. If he folds you are up against the one all in player - but as you hold nothing he's likely to have you beat + you're relying on outdrawing him. If your opponent was slowplaying + raises you've just wasted some chips. If he calls what do you do after the turn if you still don't hit?

[laidbackbloke]

Re: Another query on play I didn't write anything about the actual hand that you played in my last post ................ Just about the idea of going three way or going for a 50/50. So I probably wasn't that clear about how I would have played the hand, but as i said- If I think I'm ahead, I'll try and get more money in the pot or get it down to me v the all-in. For the hand you played I wouldn't have thought i was very likely to be ahead of the all-in and would have had to fold against any raise, so I have to agree with Dave that I would have probably just checked all the way on this one rather than betting................ The reasons for doing this however, are the ones dave gave ................. Not so that there is a greater chance of knocking out the all-in.