Party Poker Team Challenge

[Haichan]

I played the Party Poker Team Challenge Final on Saturday at Dusk til Dawn with Andy Bell. I think we finished about 41st with all 4 of us getting in the points.

However my exit late on Saturday night was very bizzare. We are down to about 160 players from the 330 starters.  Our team started with 240,000K each with a very slow structure. I was down to around 30k mid tournament after a series of lost big pots but had managed to recover to around 600k. However by this stage their is around 40k in blinds and anti's in every pot. I am dealt 99 in early position and raise the pot to around 100k. Folded round to the small blind who calls. The big blind sitting on about 800k also calls. Flop comes Q/10 spades 4 diamond. I raise the pot to 200k. small blind folds and the big blind who is very loose announces all in. I suspect he is on a draw and announce call. We then turn over our cards. He has J9, no spade.  The dealer then takes our cards I had assumed to place them next to the flop but instead mucks them and pushes the pot to me. She then starts shuffling the cards. We ask her what she is doing and she says she hadn't heard the all in and call.  We call the floor manager over. Whilst we are waiting both the Big Blind and I agree that the most reasonable course of  action seems a split pot.

However the floor manager announces that he will reconstruct the hand and deal the last 2 cards on the flop from a reshuffled deck.

Despite objections he proceeds to do so. Blank on the turn but a J hits the river and I am out.  I complain to the Floor manager but he insists this is the most reasonable course of action.

Since the event I have looked at several discussions on forums about similar situations and what most major tournament directors consider is the correct rule.

Several would apply a similar rule to the one applied at Dusk til Dawn. However the one issue I hadn't thought about when the dealer mucked the cards is the position of discards. Most Tournament Directors would not allow a reconstruction of hands from the muck if the discards were used as part of the deck remaining for dealing the final 2 cards. In my case all the deck apart from the 7 cards were used to deal the final 2 cards. As we were at at a full table their were another 16 cards that should not have been in the deck when it was dealt. This obviously put me at a massive disadvantage against the draw of the big blind as he should have been only drawing to a deck of only 29 cards. However he was actually drawing to a deck of 45 cards.

So I am very frustrated with the ruling at Dusk til Dawn.

Would welcome any views.

[Danshot]

Unlucky hope you and the team had fun at the event still. 

However unless I'm missing something I don't understand how you know that him drawing from 45 cards gives the Big Blind any more of a chance that drawing from 29 unless you have additional information that hasn't been posted in your opening post? 

Him drawing from 45 also gives you the possible of you having a bigger advantage it all depends on how many of his outs were in the 16 cards that should of been in the muck and how many were in the 29 cards that should been left. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Danshot
re-wording

[Haichan]

The fact is that prior to the flop I was a 66/34 fav and on the flop I am a 60/40 fav. But that assumes 16 cards have been discarded. If they are put back in the deck then he is drawing to  16 extra cards. We cannot know how many of his 11 outs were in the discards but it still increase his opportunity for hitting one of his outs. The following quote from well know Tournament Director Thomas Kremser highlights the problem
"Because the deck is mixed up with the discards I would rule this situation a split pot between the 2 players. It must be guaranteed that no discard (cards that players folded) can come back again otherwise one of the 2 players could technically lose against "Zero-outs". The fact that cards have been mucked doesn't influence at all as they have been tabled correctly but the fact that discards could be on the board (after reshuffling the deck) is an important fact."

We cannot know but it seems to be common sense that giving someone an extra 16 cards increase his chances of winning the pot