2,000 Guineas

[mileni4uk]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

The best horse I've seen in the last 20 years is not even on the alltime list at timeform !!!! ZARKAVA.

Sorry.. what?! She beat Youmzain and Dar Re Mi by 2L. Is that what makes her best horse in the last 20 years? Beating Group 2/Group 3 horses in a Group 1. This whole comparison what's best and what isn't is stupid. It's impossible to tell unless they race eachother and they can't.

[McG]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Well, I managed to arrange my day so that I could slope off in to Ladbroke's to watch the race live. Would the race plan have been the same if the pacemaker hadn't been drawn on completely the other end of the stalls? I doubt it. That said, the difference in speed in the first 4-5 furlongs was visually awesome - he just battered the opposition in to submission. Watching it again when back home, and the post-race comments, Cecil seemd to be suggesting caution about punters lumping on him for the Derby - entered for the Dante, so let's see then. What really got me thinking was one of the pundit's comments (Francome or Little Jim) around how many races Frankel could actually deliver if he stuck to that style - whereas Sea The Stars had that uncanny ability to get there in the final half-furlong (or is my memory playing tricks on me?), blasting the opposition away like they did today might fore-shorten his racing career, and would probably limit him to a mile at the most. Allin all, it's a performance I'll remember for a very long while :ok

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Sorry.. what?! She beat Youmzain and Dar Re Mi by 2L. Is that what makes her best horse in the last 20 years? Beating Group 2/Group 3 horses in a Group 1. This whole comparison what's best and what isn't is stupid. It's impossible to tell unless they race eachother and unfortunately they can't.

Her ARC win, she had a bad draw, she missed the break and she finished strongly. She beat Goldikova numerous times, in one race she beat Goldikva virtually on the bit and Soumillion was waving to the crowd half a furlong out. She could run the last 2 furlongs in a fast run race in 22 seconds on fast or heavy...etc etc. In her Arc there were some very high class horses, Duke of Marmalade who won about 4 group ones in the summer and a few Derby winners. Did you ever see Zarkava run ?

[calculus]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Glad to see a certain amount of sanity has been restored to this thread :ok

[mowgli77]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Didn't have a penny on Frankel but as a fan of racing was just blown away by that performance. All the time I'm thinking surely it's gone off too fast and is going to come back to the field but they could not even get close. It wasn't that they had given it too much rope, they just couldn't go the same pace and it was even too quick for it's own pacemaker. :lol:lol I don't care about Timeform ratings or speed figures, I know what I saw with my own eyes, an amazing horse put in an amazing performance. I have had a feeling for a while that it will win the Guineas in style, it will then go to the Dante and win that too and everyone will lump on for the Derby at a short price but it won't win that and loads of other horses will be great value in the Derby because Frankel will end up so short if it goes to Epsom. I still fancy Carlton House for the Derby but want to see how that runs in the Dante too. I can't see Frankel settling and getting a mile and a half and I can't see it getting away with a trailblazing performance like today in the Derby. Could be one of the best milers we ever see but not sure it will get a trip of 1m4f. I thought Native Khan ran a good race today, was on that each way but I want to watch the race back again and see at what point all the other rivals were toiling. Had to set off to Donny straight after the Guineas so missed all the replays and interviews and stuff. Can't believe we see a wonderful performance like that and all people want to do is knock it. :(

[FlowRock]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Come on guys, I am posting in a german harness race forum too, where i announced Frankel last year, so I am happy with that, because i expected a great performance and what more could I have asked for. Today was quite expensive betting wise, because the odds were too nice (backed the 2nd and 3d win only, paid 7/1 and 4/1 place in the tote, seconditis all day long) BUT what I saw today was simply amazing, this little horse destroyed the field in an by now unknown way. I feel privileged to wittnes the supreme performances of horses like Sea the the Stars, Zenyatta, Goldikova, my very own swedish harness racer Maharajah (one of 6000 owners ...:ok) and now Frankel. So you should too... :cow

[mileni4uk]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Did you ever see Zarkava run ?

Nah, mate. I didn't. I just talk rubbish on a forum without watching any racing at all.

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Nah' date=' mate. I didn't. I just talk rubbish on a forum without watching any racing at all.[/quote'] This I can believe.

[ELCAKER]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Frankel's performance today was staggeringly good. To actually deliver on the big day is such a hard thing to do. He idled and won by 6 lengths in a group 1 over a mile. He had some very good horses in a different parish.The discussion is will he stay 1m 4? On todays run he could win a July Cup over 6 furlongs. He is a phenomenal horse and one any horse racing fan should treasure. 6 out of 6 and getting better....congratulations to all his connections.

[fintron]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Whether through accident or design, the tactics adopted by Frankel today were superb and caught plenty of people (myself included) by total surprise - caught with our pants down infact. The slight chink in Frankel's formiddable armoury was that he sometimes raced a little keenly, so what better way to make your horse settle than the blast out of the gates and spreadeagle the field? I don't know whether it was Cecil or Queally's doing or whether it was unplanned, but it was breathtaking to watch and the best performance from a racehorse I have seen in my time watching the sport. He had them cooked miles out and never let up, brilliant stuff. Well done to Frankel backers.

[stewartd14]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

This I can believe.

Uncalled for Zenyatta. For what it's worth, I am with you to an extent here. Zarkava's performance, as a 3 year old filly in the Arc was, in my opinion, exceptional. We know Youmzain is a bridesmaid rather than a prolific winner, but let's not forget, he also got to within 2 lengths of Sea the Stars in the 09 Arc. Sea the Stars was a colt (who admittedly probably ran below his best), but Zarkava was a 3 year old filly. A tremendous performance in my opinion.

[stewartd14]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

From a runners perspective this is a pretty bad example as a horses mile race would probably equate more to a 400m sprint than a 100m sprint. Therefore the way Frankel ran today would probably equate more like Michael Johnson running 45.5secs flat after running 19.7 for the first 200m (impossible to maintain that pace for 400m). However if he had ran at a more level pace, say 20.5 secs for the first 200m, the same runner in the same conditions would most probably run around 44.0 secs. Therefore, in my opinion, the time today is irrelevant to a certain extent - it was a visually taking performance and a destruction of field of horses prepped for a big run. Once again just my opinion :ok

100% my point.

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Uncalled for Zenyatta. .

Agrees. Apolgies to Mileni

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

To rate a horse on one spectacular performance is stupid, so they can rate him 142 and he never runs up to that standard again, how does that benefit punters or timeform students. On Sea the Stars, the Arc Win after a long season was the best performance of his career, his Eclipse Win was one of the greatest Eclipse wins of alltime. The best horse I've seen in the last 20 years is not even on the alltime list at timeform !!!! ZARKAVA.

Zarkava was rated 133 by Timeform, 3 lbs below the best rated of her sex. However, it is a shame she did not get the chance to race on. Because those above her produced their best as older horses. So 133 is an outstanding rating for a 3 year old filly. Of course for a true comparison against colts, you need to add the sex allowance to the 133. Strangely I believe Timeform would agree with you Zenyatta, she was the best filly in 20 years on their ratings. Timeform have to rate horses, we need to know how to rate each horse against the next. You say to rate a horse on one performance is "stupid". So what you are saying is, even if they believe the performance is worth a 142, and that he's capable of reproducing 142; they should not rate it 142. Now that is stupid.

[jtw1]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Her ARC win, she had a bad draw, she missed the break and she finished strongly. She beat Goldikova numerous times, in one race she beat Goldikva virtually on the bit and Soumillion was waving to the crowd half a furlong out. She could run the last 2 furlongs in a fast run race in 22 seconds on fast or heavy...etc etc. In her Arc there were some very high class horses, Duke of Marmalade who won about 4 group ones in the summer and a few Derby winners. Did you ever see Zarkava run ?

Won the ARC from stall 1 but the 2nd and one of the dead-hearters for 3rd were drawn 3 and 2 , so hardly a bad draw that time as well as the RP report stating that she 'broke well , held up towards rear' Yes she did beat GOLDIKOVA twice , the first was after GOLDIKOVA [her 4th run] had actually unseated her jockey , had virtually refused to enter the stalls and then stumbled when the stalls opened but still managed to finish 2nd to the 3/10 fav ZARKAVA . She then beat GOLDIKOVA over 11f , a distance we now know was 2f too far for GOLDIKOVA . She never ran on ground officially deemed faster than Good . Can't argue with the fact she was unbeaten in 7 races but all she could do was beat what was entered against her , which is exactly what FRANKEL has done today so just enjoy the manner in which he did so :ok and nit-pick when he retires , as we can now with ZARKAVA ;)

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Won the ARC from stall 1 but the 2nd and one of the dead-hearters for 3rd were drawn 3 and 2 , so hardly a bad draw that time as well as the RP report stating that she 'broke well , held up towards rear' Yes she did beat GOLDIKOVA twice , the first was after GOLDIKOVA [her 4th run] had actually unseated her jockey , had virtually refused to enter the stalls and then stumbled when the stalls opened but still managed to finish 2nd to the 3/10 fav ZARKAVA . She then beat GOLDIKOVA over 11f , a distance we now know was 2f too far for GOLDIKOVA . She never ran on ground officially deemed faster than Good . Can't argue with the fact she was unbeaten in 7 races but all she could do was beat what was entered against her , which is exactly what FRANKEL has done today so just enjoy the manner in which he did so :ok and nit-pick when he retires , as we can now with ZARKAVA ;)

I've got most of ZARAVAs races on dvd, in the Arc she stood still for a second came out last and tried to jink to the right where there was a gap in the rail, she did not break well. You are totally right she had a perfect draw next to the rail, but the RP are wrong she did not break well. EDIT...Just watched the race on youtube and she broke well from that angle. (In the BBC coverage she jinks right after leaving the stalls) !! On Goldikova, one of my favourite racehorses of alltime but she was not in ZARKAVAs league. ZARKAVA had to be retired because she was becoming untrainable at home, like you say she never raced on fast ground but her action was of a fast ground horse, she could run on any ground. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agsMzlj09Pk

[jtw1]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

I've got most of ZARAVAs races on dvd, in the Arc she stood still for a second came out last and tried to jink to the right where there was a gap in the rail, she did not break well. On Goldikova, one of my favourite racehorses of alltime but she was not in ZARKAVAs league. ZARKAVA had to be retired because she was becoming untrainable at home, like you say she never raced on fast ground but her action was of a fast ground horse, she could run on any ground.

My point is that it's only when a racehorse retires that we can look back and truly judge what he/she has achieved over their career . Yes GOLDIKOVA was not in ZARKAVA's league over 10f+ but over a Mile [once she settled at the start over time ] GOLDIKOVA was/is the undoubted Queen so it's really unfair to compare the 2 . Had to re-watch the Arc of 2008 and what a brilliant win btw :ok

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

My point is that it's only when a racehorse retires that we can look back and truly judge what he/she has achieved over their career . Yes GOLDIKOVA was not in ZARKAVA's league over 10f+ but over a Mile [once she settled at the start over time ] GOLDIKOVA was/is the undoubted Queen so it's really unfair to compare the 2 . Had to re-watch the Arc of 2008 and what a brilliant win btw :ok

Totally agree with you mate.

[diamond1924]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Whether through accident or design, the tactics adopted by Frankel today were superb and caught plenty of people (myself included) by total surprise - caught with our pants down infact. The slight chink in Frankel's formiddable armoury was that he sometimes raced a little keenly, so what better way to make your horse settle than the blast out of the gates and spreadeagle the field? I don't know whether it was Cecil or Queally's doing or whether it was unplanned, but it was breathtaking to watch and the best performance from a racehorse I have seen in my time watching the sport. He had them cooked miles out and never let up, brilliant stuff. Well done to Frankel backers.

Was thinking that myself, all that talk of a pacemaker then.... WHOOOSHH I get the feeling in hindsight that this was a shock and awe tactic, a "win in devastating style or else" kind of thing, knowing that he might not get the Dante trip never mind the Derby. If he doesn't get the Dante and has a mystery "year ending problem", he has guaranteed stud rights based on that phenomenal display. In saying that, this isn't Cecil or Abdullah's style, but just thinking that they felt the need to really cement that awesome display just in case...

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas To read between the lines and try to understand Timeform's rating: Let me first say I have nothing to do with Timeform and they probably have a time aspect that I don't fully understand. I am guessing a bit here. It is interesting that Slim Shady was rated by Timeform 2010 racehorses at 96 (without a "p"). At 1 length = 2.33333 pounds: 96 + (11 (lengths) x 2.33333) = 122 rating for Native Khan 122 + (0.5 (lengths) x 2.33333) = 123 rating for Dubai Gold 123 + (6 x 2.33333) = 137 rating for Frankel This also gives Happy Today a rating of 81, whaer as his Timeform Annual rating is 90p. However, I believe Timeform are rating Frankel as an 8 length winner. 123 + (8 x 2.33333) = 142 rating for Frankel Taking a look at the last 10 runners up of the 2000 Guineas, the average runner-up produced a 121 rating. The fact there was 11 lengths back to the fourth, suggests a better than average performance by the second and third. However, when looking at a race, I try and look for horses who did better than the horses it raced with early on. To try and find those who did better than the performance (on the book) suggests; and the opposite. The horses who chased Frankel (raced fairly prominently) fell by the wayside, finishing out with the washing. Native Khan was held up in mid-div. Dubai Gold was dropped out a couple of lengths behind all other runners in last place. I am presuming here the pace was a fast one; but I believe Frankel was even better than the performance suggests. Had he not run those early fractions, he'd have won by even further (imo). Therefore, he could be rated on the distances before he got tired. On the other hand, Dubai Gold being out the back, probably ran the "best" pace, an even pace. Where as most of the others did not run even fractions. So Dubai Gold was in my opinion flattered by his finishing position and should be rated with a "?". I do not expect Dubai Gold to run to that rating again, unless dropped out last with an overly strong pace. As Jim McGrath said immediately after the race, it is questionable if Frankel's temperament will enable him to reproduce this rating as many times as some would wish. So I am sure there will be knockers of the form in future. I personally would rate the race provisionally 2 lbs less than the above.

[mileni4uk]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

The shortening of World Domination and Carlton House tell the story for me.

Bookies knew Frankel is staying over a mile yesterday.

[mileni4uk]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Cecil confirms this morning, that Frankel won't run in Derby. World Domination had a bruised foot, but is on route to Dante. Mr. Henderson, this is how it's done!