Should he stay or should he go ?

[Trotter]

Paul Roy You probably read the story.........the head of the BHA, one of who's investment companies recently bought 5 million shares in Betfair when it was floated. (They'd applied for 40 million shares but the offer was over-subscribed and they only got 5 million) Even without knowing all the details it seems an open and shut case of a conflict of interest. The man in charge of an organisation trying to get the best deal possible out of the betting industry is a large shareholder in a constituent part of that industry. He says that he can put one hat on when he's at the BHA and another hat when he's at his investment company.........that doesn't really wash, does it ? It's the perception of a conflict of interest that just as important. Let's just say, for example, that Betfair get what appears to be a good deal from the BHA (and whatever the deal is, some people will think just that) then people will insinuate that they got a good deal because the boss of the BHA is a shareholder in betfair - it undermines his authority in dealing with the betting industry What do you think ?..........stay or go ?

[jayalexander]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Or maybe he could have used the shares as leverage to try and push through some BHA policies? Or he could have pumped his dividends back into the BHA? Nah, you're probably right, Trotter :rollin I haven't read the article, although I'm sure I will do over the next day or two. However, he'll probably end up going.

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? dont think it helps the causes of the BHA, as levy discussions now very much at a critical point, the bookies could use this against him and therefore against racing.... very much concerned regarding this levy thing... the bookies are able to make everybody believe that racing is only a minor business for them (virtual racing is more a core product today then real racing they say) ...and oh of course the pay already more than their ever paid.... for sure.... government have to make these eggheads to pay ...and if racing dont get minimum 90m levy they should boycott or something like that ... cant get this through my head .... dont u understand that racing will continually decline...until very much a minor sport like here in germany... gosden , betfairjonjo and much more people have given enough warnings imo...

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Everyone in racing has a conflict of interest. Punters don't want to pay more in to the levy. Owners, trainers and jockeys want more money from bookmakers/exchanges (punters) in through the levy. Racecourses want more fixtures to make more money. All factions fighting their own corner, all acting in their own best interests, all with a "conflict of interest" when it comes to what's best for "Racing". However, the sum of money involved with Paul Roy's betfair shares does make things very difficult, probably a "conflict" too far. So yes, I'd say he should resign.

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? well things could be easy? when i look at France... tote monopoly and what.... pmu have nearly 10 billion turnover= 1 billion taxes for france and 1 billion that goes directly to racing = exceptional high prize money....in France when u buy a horse it has to win two times a minor event and everythings paid. 10 grand for the winner is the minimum there.:ok And i couldnt imagine a more healthy sport, and to be honest i would rather prefer betting on the tote on a healthy sport whos competitive than on fixed odds on a sport that will be dead in 5 years because of no money coming back. i know its even more difficult to be a winning punter when you are betting parimutuel but as i said ... interesting that in france also a lot of young people are interested in horse racing... when UK Racing would had 200m levy , they could use 80 m for advertising the sport and i bet a grand young people would be interested... sorry bit offtopic, yes he should go! ;)

[NIGEL2611]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ?

He says that he can put one hat on when he's at the BHA and another hat when he's at his investment company.........that doesn't really wash, does it ?/QUOTE] If you believe this you will believe anything! I am sure this statement was made in an honest manner but human nature being what it is, there has to be a clash of interests at some point & its only human to favour ones own pocket! He has to go I'm afraid, regardless of how good he is at his job.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ?

well things could be easy? when i look at France... tote monopoly and what.... pmu have nearly 10 billion turnover= 1 billion taxes for france and 1 billion that goes directly to racing = exceptional high prize money....in France when u buy a horse it has to win two times a minor event and everythings paid. 10 grand for the winner is the minimum there.:ok And i couldnt imagine a more healthy sport, and to be honest i would rather prefer betting on the tote on a healthy sport whos competitive than on fixed odds on a sport that will be dead in 5 years because of no money coming back. i know its even more difficult to be a winning punter when you are betting parimutuel but as i said ... interesting that in france also a lot of young people are interested in horse racing... when UK Racing would had 200m levy , they could use 80 m for advertising the sport and i bet a grand young people would be interested... sorry bit offtopic, yes he should go! ;)

French punters are absolutely skrewed. Parimutuel over-round is enormous which means it's not "difficult" to make a profit from betting in France, it's "downright impossible". :eek French punters should go on strike, they're robbing the poor to pay the rich! Lot of French young people interested, yur 'avin' a laaf.:rollin Nobody goes racing in France, it's dead. Run as a private club for owners and trainers. Of course owners prefer it.:\ With the British Tote being sold off, GB has lost its chance. They should have slashed their take out to 5%. Bookmakers would be unable to compete and go out of buisness, and Tote would also compete with exchanges.

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? nobody goes racing in france? common? where do you get your information from? its downright impossible? its just not true but dont care believe what u want to believe... heard of that 5% thing with the tote but asked myself if it would be still profitable enough for the tote with that 5% drop....maybe that would have worked out , dunno... robbing the poor to pay the rich :cry:cry :rollin everybodys betting on whatsoever should only bet when he can afford to loose it ... i mean its romantic, but greedy egghead bookies that made money from racing one century and almost gave back nothing are mcuh worthier to critise then the pmu ;) u look from punting perspective ...and say ah the evil owners in france and the poor punter....here in uk u can say the poor owners and people that living from racing.... haha 1,000 pound for winning a race ....i would shit on 1000 pound.... thats so poor , i mean it says all.... and u criticise french racing :ok

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ?

nobody goes racing in france? common? where do you get your information from? its downright impossible? its just not true but dont care believe what u want to believe... heard of that 5% thing with the tote but asked myself if it would be still profitable enough for the tote with that 5% drop....maybe that would have worked out , dunno... robbing the poor to pay the rich :cry:cry :rollin everybodys betting on whatsoever should only bet when he can afford to loose it ... i mean its romantic, but greedy egghead bookies that made money from racing one century and almost gave back nothing are mcuh worthier to critise then the pmu ;) u look from punting perspective ...and say ah the evil owners in france and the poor punter....here in uk u can say the poor owners and people that living from racing.... haha 1,000 pound for winning a race ....i would shit on 1000 pound.... thats so poor , i mean it says all.... and u criticise french racing :ok

Compared to the amount of people going racing in Britain there are few racegoers in France. Friends of mine who go racing there agree. When a punter can not "take a price" he does not know if the price he is taking is value or not. Without value a punter can not make a profit. Best he can do is leave it until the last possible moment. However, every value punter will be doing the same. So even then, in many occasions betting will change enormously. That would not be so bad if they were working to a small over-round, but they're not. Our Tote do not have enough of the current market to make working to 105% pay, but they are bound to get a larger share if dropping to 105%. Especially once bookmakers go out of buisness. Kerznerpunt, you seem to be under the impression bookmakers have money that drops from the sky. These "greedy" bookmakers get all their money from punters. If you want more money from bookmakers going to owners, then more money will be going from (the comparitively poor) punter, via bookies, to owners (comparitively rich). I criticise French racing because the PMU take out is fleecing French punters. I agree there should not be owners in GB running for so little. But then again these horses are so poor, they should not be able to win races. Get rid of these crap races. There is too much racing and above all, too much crap racing. Owners are not evil, never said they were. Just, in these hard times, I don't think it is right to tax the poor more to pay the rich. There are other ways.

[chris34]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Ginger is correct French racing is some of the worst attended around the world, you only have to watch a weekday meeting at Longchamp like they put on the other Monday in bookies when Newcastle was abondoned there was knowone there, yeah course they get the crowds for Arc etc. but the rest is very very very quiet!

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? maybe track attendance is low, dunno but hundreds of mugs are in those betting cafes otherwise the pmu wouldnt have a turnover of around 10 billion?

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? 10 Billion is a good sum. Believe it was 13 Billion in GB last year. Been reading on another forum about the Levy and what it is used for. Prizemoney, yes. But it is strange that it was established in 1961 as compensation for courses, as the likely drop in attendances expected when shops were legalised. These days there are plenty of racegoers. With the Levy being spent on plenty of things you would not believe. Cost of stalls, cameras, security, building works (interest free loans), "integrity" (25Million), and disgracefully BHA pension funds for their staff! :@

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? the problem is that despite in uk & ireland the sport is so popular....more popular then in any other country of the world , the prize money level is one of the lowest in the whole world....france much higher prize money...usa has much higher prize money ...etc etc. :@

[TheRat]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Levy debate on SSN news tonight for anyone interested. 7.30pm

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? What has gone wrong in Germany Kerznerpunt? With racecourses closing.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? A tote monopoly like France or USA would certainly put more money in, but it would lead to the take outs we see in France, uncompetitive markets and boring racecourses. French punters probably live in ignorance, they don't know anything better. If a monopoly were to be obtained in GB, there'd need to be safeguards to maintain over-rounds at current levels. Not that it will happen, bookmakers would fight it in the courts, as they did successfully when the BHA tried to sell rights to racecards. How can the Government/BHA just say bookies can't bet on British racing anymore? They can't. The only way it could happen is if the existing Tote slashes their take out, forcing bookmakers out of buisness.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Why is prizemoney seen as the be all and end all anyway? If you take National Hunt racing. French jump racing has excellent prizemoney, compares very well with Britain. Yet they can't hold on to their best horses, with a lot of promising horses bought by British owners to race in Britain for less money. How often do you hear of promising horses travelling the other way? The English Derby is no longer one of the World's richest races, yet it is worth a hell of a lot more to the winner in stud value. We do though, rely on Sheikh Mo and Co to remain supportive. Without their input we certainly would find it hard to maintain our position. As indeed France would if the Aga and Niarchos family pull out.

[diamond1924]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Most of this stuff goes over my head as it doesn't concern me, but firstly on the subject of Paul Roy, it's clear cut for me, you can't wear two hats and ask people to trust your honesty and discretion. If the guy is that loaded, why does he need to wear two hats? One of the other please sir. Regarding horse owners, shouldn't the system be revised, so that the horse owners, receive a basic sum of money for their horses actually participating in the races (as a sort of royalty payment, maybe based on the class of race, a sum that would seem to reflect the basic training costs, etc)?

[Trotter]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? All gone quiet on the Roy front......... Presumably he's going to hang on. I suppose in a way it highlights the lack of interest in racing. If he was a politician or a bigwig at the FA he'd have been plastered all over the papers for 2 weeks until he had to go just to stop the story. Press and TV etc just aren't interested in Racing. Diamond.........I don't think that's a good idea, re paying owners to run. Unless it was a pitiful amount it would bankrupt racing pretty quickly No........I think owners should pay for their hobby. They're generally rich men or syndicates of comfortably well off people. There doesn't seem to be any lack of owners and what's more there doesn't seem to be any lack of runners in class 6 handicaps on the all weather for a prize of 2K.......those races are invariably full and quite often divided into 2 divisions 'cos so many horses are declared. The bottom end of racing appears to be thriving.........and there can be little chance of making it pay for owners at that level. They're happy to pay to enjoy their hobby.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Number of owners, trainers and horses are on the decline Trotter. According to a poster on theracingforum (don't know where he got his information from, possibly BHA website) In just 2 years: Owners (joint and sole) 9483 in 2008 to 8777 in 2010. Down 706 (7.4%) Trainers (excluding permit holders) 621 to 576. Down 45 (7.2%) Horses in training 14825 to 14199. Down 626 (4.2%) It's not only the "bottom end", but doubt if it's "thriving". Fewer owners, trainers and horses could be a good thing, if the standard was going up. But I don't believe it is. We may not have seen the full effects of this yet.

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? whats gone wrong in germany??? germany racing funded from german tote ....and from 2000 to 2010 tote turnover has fallen about 80% !!!! there various reasons for this...bad marketing for horse racing in germany ...no innovations , bad overround and better fixed odds at bookies etc etc... at least it seems that this german racing thing they started this year stops the decline... regarding the levy discussion..... i cant believe how much people dont care about it.... they say : ah life goes on....ah racing goes on....:@:@:@ yeah of course but maybe in 5 years we have only 7 fixtures the whole week....and its not sure that this 7 fixtures will be more competitive then today meetings... dont u see the sport is in decline???:unsure:unsure:unsure do nothing like we did here in germany and wait til the sport is dead :ok:ok:ok top work lads:ok :wall

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? As I expect is true for most of us Kznerpunt, I/we do "care", it's just I don't think the answer is for punters to pay more. There must be other ways of producing money other than more (or even any) levy. Around half of all sponsership of races last year was by bookmakers. We can't afford to alienate bookmakers too much.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? A Tote-Fair betting exchange to rival Betfair. With all profits going back to "racing". Trouble is can't see the BHA having the money or nouse to set it up. If only we can find a rich benefactor to start an exchange (may be buy one of the smaller ones out). Then once his/her costs were retrieved, give it to "racing". With 5% (or whatever is needed to compete with Betfair) take out on bets. Once liquidity is competitive with Betfair, am sure punters would change to a company whos profits stay in racing. Tote-Fair machines to be set up at racecourses. Also for the existing Tote pool individual odds to be slashed. I believe it is a 111% over-round for every race at the moment. At 111% I never bet with tote pool odds, but a smaller take out would make it worth the risk of not knowing exactly what odds I am taking. With advanced computers / programmes these days, I don't see why it should always be the same over-round no matter how many runners. Why not have a take out of 0.75% per horse for most racing and 0.5% for competitive handicaps? Better still, a sliding scale where the more runners and more competitive a race is, the less over-round is taken out. Also existing Tote fixed odds over-rounds to be drastically reduced. In a bid for a larger market share. With all these changes I would be surprised if many conventional bookmakers will be able to compete and going out of buisness, with Tote / Tote-Fair getting a larger share and so more profits go to racing.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Other possible changes: (I have copied many ideas) 1%, (possibly more) of bloodstock sales going to prizemoney. 1% of all Bookmakers turnover from every race going to prizemoney. (That was Barry Dennis's solution) A definate % of racecourse profits to go in to prizemoney for their course. A slight increase in owners entrance fees to go in to prizemoney. A 12 (or more) runner race every Saturday and Sunday where punters have to pick the positions each horse finishes, first to 12th. The one who picks all 12 in the correct order wins massively, with lesser and lesser prizes to first 11, 10, 9, 8 and so on. If nobody gets first 12, then a bit smaller goes to the one who picks the first 11, then 10, and so on. Your thoughts and suggestions?

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? i dont wanna attack lads here, i mean the majority of punters / or people interested in horse racing dont care about the levy thing... but indeed they should... i think this tote /exchange thing is a good idea , already had a similar idea and posted it in the betfair forum.... but most said that they dont believe the bha is smart enough to run such a business 1. and second that liquidity will be a problem as even today some punters are moaning about the liquidity at betfair... the other changes u mentioned could be "additional".... and seem good ideas:ok here in germany the direktorium ( german counterpart of bha) bought an thriving online bookie....the profits now are thought to help german racing... but its too early to say wheter it works or not, but signs are positive. at all i would want government in uk to make the bookies at least pay 80m+ levy regardless the circumstances... hopefully some changes will happen to relive racing!!!:drums

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Kznerpunt, Would you be trying to get more money from Betfair / Tote-fair? And how? If you want more money from bookmakers (or rather their punters), you will need more money from exchanges. Otherwise bookmakers will not be able to compete at all with betfair, which is unfair. Barry Dennis also said he'd be in favour of legislation. (If I have this right) To prevent off-shore (Gibraltar etc) bookmakers taking bets with debit / credit cards on British racing from British customers. Other countries like USA, France etc have these laws.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ?

i dont wanna attack lads here' date=' i mean the majority of punters / or people interested in horse racing dont care about the levy thing... but indeed they should...[/quote'] Am a little surprised myself on the (apparent) lack of interest on this forum about something that will effect all horse racing punters. It's certainly THE subject everyone is interested in on TRF.

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? @ Ginger You call me KZnerpunt for a particular reason? :spank;) Whats TRF? an other racing/punting forum? Yes i cant believe it too. I mean if we do nothing or dont care about the levy discussion, the sport will be massively affected and will become a minor sport ( I know i am saying the same thing over and over again, but i just cant say it too often). Getting more money out of Betfair / Totefair ? Sorry but i dont understand the question? You mean regarding the levy discussion or when it comes to Betfair / Totefair as racings saver? Regarding the Levy Discussion, i think im with Betfair, they say they pay their fare share and i think their right, regarding Totefair ...uhm it is fantasy :D and the Tote... any punter in UK playing Tote anymore? The whole levy subject is very complex indeed, and im not sure wheter the "one" change will turn things round or wheter several changes have to, but "we" ( the racing enthusiasts, punters, owners, trainers, jockeys) have to change something! You say we shouldnt trifle away the bookies but i believe times were "racing" wanted a normal discussion with them were long enough... and...nothing happened! So maybe racing should get a bit more aggressive a bit more enterprisingly ridden?! Dont you think so?

[Gingertipster]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Sorry Kerznerpunt, No reason other than tried remembering your name and spelling it how I said it. Apple Oggies. :$ Still don't think we can expect the punter (bookmakers) to pay as much as you think they should. But if so, I said about Betfair putting more money in because: They may or may not be paying their fair share at the moment. But if you want the bookmakers Levy to be upped significantly, then Betfair will also need to pay more to keep parity. Otherwise Betfair will have such an advantage, they'd get all the buisness. Totefair may well be a fantasy, unless as I say, we can find a benefactor to finance it (Big Buck's owner Andy Stewart perhaps). There'd have to be quite a few changes. Barry Dennis's 1% of turnover idea and legislation stopping off-shore debit/credit card gambling is a good one too (if workable). I don't see why owners should get off scot free as well. Increase their entrance fees. And racecourses should pay more of their profits back in to prize money. PL and TRF (theracingforum) are equally good forums. Punters Lounge is by definition more interested in punting. TRF is primarily racing politics and opinion. BHA public relations rep Paul Struthers ("Silvoir") often gets on there too with the official line. Along with "Anglo German" who is connected (in some way) with that good German 2 mile chaser Fiepes Shuffle.

[kerznerpunt]

Re: Should he stay or should he go ? Fiepes Shuffle :ok loved the horse to bits! Hope he enjoys his old days! One of the best german chasers/hurdlers forever :notworthy Ah ok, hmm maybe i have a look at TRF. I dont say the punter should pay more, dont get me wrong, i just say something have to be done and id said that i rather prefer betting on the tote then seeing racing dead! But indeed best would be to get the sport somehow bounce back and we all can play fixed odds... Will sum up some ideas i have tonight, but im running out of time now ;)