Any PLO advice?

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice? Any thoughts on this hand? I've just sat down at the table, so have absolutely no information on anyone.... ***** Hand History for Game 37903675529 ***** (Poker Stars) $25.00 USD PL Omaha - Saturday, January 09, 08:03:48 ET 2010 Table Fidelio IV (Real Money) Seat 1 is the button Seat 1: pl-GaF ( $25.00 USD ) Seat 2: jonsoir ( $15.35 USD ) Seat 3: Live21 ( $16.60 USD ) Seat 4: suurik15 ( $26.05 USD ) Seat 5: csejteine ( $23.10 USD ) Seat 6: santpoort N ( $15.30 USD ) jonsoir posts small blind [$0.10 USD]. Live21 posts big blind [$0.25 USD]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to pl-GaF [ :6c: :4c: :5h: :7h: ] suurik15 raises [$0.50 USD] csejteine calls [$0.50 USD] santpoort N calls [$0.50 USD] pl-GaF calls [$0.50 USD] jonsoir calls [$0.40 USD] Live21 calls [$0.25 USD] ** Dealing Flop ** [ :6s:, :5c:, :Jh: ] jonsoir checks Live21 checks suurik15 bets [$2.85 USD] csejteine calls [$2.85 USD] santpoort N folds pl-GaF calls [$2.85 USD] jonsoir folds Live21 folds ** Dealing Turn ** [ :Ts: ] suurik15 bets [$11.00 USD] csejteine calls [$11.00 USD] pl-GaF calls [$11.00 USD] ** Dealing River ** [ :Ks: ] suurik15 bets [$11.00 USD] csejteine calls [$8.75 USD] pl-GaF folds

[Woodie]

Re: Any PLO advice? Am no expert at plo but you got to raise that flop why would you call here the only turn card your happy with is a 3 5 or 6

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice? I know it's not the nuts, but I'd be reasonably happy with an 8 too wouldn't I?

[billy the punter]

Re: Any PLO advice? From our game the other night I think you need to tighten up in general after the flop. Which is totally understandable coming from NLHE. My thoughts on a couple of hands and how I personally would see the situation. In the first game you shoved over my c/raise with a flush draw. This can be a decent move in hold 'em as there are hands a check-raiser can still fold (top pair etc). In PLO you are not going to get a check-raiser to fold. If you have the nut draw what is he c/raising with? Top 2 or better basically, or a full straight wrap. Either way if you play like this with a bare flush draw you are getting called and are odds-against for your chips. There was another hand where the flop was 9Qx (two spades) and blank on the turn but the jack of spades on the river. I bet the flop and called your reraise, then check called the turn (or something very similar). You had trip 9s. When the river came I bet big and you still called, I think you called because you had trips, you can't have thought about my hand. I had air but was calling to bluff a draw heavy board, I knew your hand. What could I play passively on the turn and flop but aggressively on the river that you were beating? The only time you are going to be in front is the exact situation you were in, against an experienced and tricky player (self-praise), capable of two floating calls at PLO. Most won't do that so your trips will be as good as 7 high come the river. I can't get my head around those tables but happy to look at hand histories. I may reraise on the button with that hand, will call a lot of the time though, depends on the previous action. Calling on the flop is wrong, especially with a caller already. In a raised pot there is a chance you are winning so why let your two pair get outdrawn. Get as much as you can in on that flop, ideally against a fool who is over playing his AA. You may get it in three-handed vs the original raiser's aces and the callers straight draw (you could freerolling against him and have some blockers if he has the higher draw). With a caller the 8 could be dangerous as there is a caller in the middle. If it became heads up it's different obviously. :ok

[BAM]

Re: Any PLO advice? Fold pre what are you hoping to hit a straight flush?

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice?

In the first game you shoved over my c/raise with a flush draw. This can be a decent move in hold 'em as there are hands a check-raiser can still fold (top pair etc). In PLO you are not going to get a check-raiser to fold. If you have the nut draw what is he c/raising with? Top 2 or better basically, or a full straight wrap. Either way if you play like this with a bare flush draw you are getting called and are odds-against for your chips.

I dont know the odds in Omaha :$ I am vaguely aware though that a lot of draws are far far stronger in Omaha than in Holdem and that a draw is often ahead of a made hand - you can hold the nuts and be behind (I think!) - whilst shoving a draw in holdem is a semi bluff - shoving a draw in PLO can be for value cant it? If you're betting for value, you dont mind if your opponent calls - you're not betting for fold equity.

There was another hand where the flop was 9Qx (two spades) and blank on the turn but the jack of spades on the river. I bet the flop and called your reraise, then check called the turn (or something very similar). You had trip 9s. When the river came I bet big and you still called, I think you called because you had trips, you can't have thought about my hand. I had air but was calling to bluff a draw heavy board, I knew your hand. What could I play passively on the turn and flop but aggressively on the river that you were beating? The only time you are going to be in front is the exact situation you were in, against an experienced and tricky player (self-praise), capable of two floating calls at PLO. Most won't do that so your trips will be as good as 7 high come the river.

In my defence, I think I knew that trip 9's wasnt a strong hand in that situation - you had been pretty agro post flop though, and I thought back to at least one previous hand where you'd bet the river with air - there comes a time when you cant just keep folding and have to make a stand - that was the hand I decided I had to make my stand.

I can't get my head around those tables but happy to look at hand histories. I may reraise on the button with that hand' date=' will call a lot of the time though, depends on the previous action.[/quote'] Agreed - I can see that the tables arent particularly readable :sad My thought at the moment is that I may record a video of a session, with commentary on my thought processes, and see if I can get feedback on that. :ok

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice?

Fold pre what are you hoping to hit a straight flush?

My VPIP is 21% - do you think I'm playing too loose? I get the impression it's on the tightish side. Am I playing too many hands, or the wrong type of hands?

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice? I just took some abuse for this hand - having dabbled quickly with the calculator, I think I'm happy with the way I played it - when I shoved the flop/called the all in, I had 48% equity. Funnily enough, the guy dishing out the abuse only had 8% equity :lol :lol PokerStars Game #37931177265: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25 USD) - 2010/01/10 8:02:18 WET [2010/01/10 3:02:18 ET] Table 'Cantabia VII' 6-max Seat #5 is the button Seat 1: pl-GaF ($25 in chips) Seat 2: TripsOnRiver ($27.70 in chips) Seat 3: NORDIQUEKK ($37.15 in chips) Seat 4: mooseknckle ($14.40 in chips) Seat 5: gauloises ($26 in chips) Seat 6: KaMiKaZeEeE ($13.05 in chips) KaMiKaZeEeE: posts small blind $0.10 pl-GaF: posts big blind $0.25 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl-GaF [:2c: :9d: :6d: :3c:] TripsOnRiver: folds NORDIQUEKK: calls $0.25 mooseknckle: calls $0.25 gauloises: folds KaMiKaZeEeE: calls $0.15 pl-GaF: checks *** FLOP *** [:4c: :Qs: :5s:] KaMiKaZeEeE: bets $0.75 pl-GaF: raises $2.45 to $3.20 NORDIQUEKK: calls $3.20 mooseknckle: folds KaMiKaZeEeE: raises $9.60 to $12.80 and is all-in pl-GaF: raises $11.95 to $24.75 and is all-in NORDIQUEKK: calls $21.55 *** TURN *** [:Td:] *** RIVER *** [:2d:] *** SHOW DOWN *** pl-GaF: shows [2c 9d 6d 3c] (a straight, Deuce to Six) NORDIQUEKK: shows [Kh 4d 4s 7h] (three of a kind, Fours) pl-GaF collected $22.85 from side pot KaMiKaZeEeE: shows [Ad 7s Qd Qh] (three of a kind, Queens) pl-GaF collected $37.45 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $63.30 Main pot $37.45. Side pot $22.85. | Rake $3 Board [4c Qs 5s Td 2d] Seat 1: pl-GaF (big blind) showed [2c 9d 6d 3c] and won ($60.30) with a straight, Deuce to Six Seat 2: TripsOnRiver folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: NORDIQUEKK showed [Kh 4d 4s 7h] and lost with three of a kind, Fours Seat 4: mooseknckle folded on the Flop Seat 5: gauloises (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: KaMiKaZeEeE (small blind) showed [Ad 7s Qd Qh] and lost with three of a kind, Queens

[billy the punter]

Re: Any PLO advice? GaF I'm very surprised that you are happy with the way you played this hand. You should not be raising the flop with your hand, or attempting to get it all in. :2c: :9d: :6d: :3c: on a :4c: :Qs: :5s: flop is not a good good/rasing draw. In a three way coup it's likely you're drawing to 6/9 outs and you could even be dead come the turn - even more likely when you go up a grade. I would only be raising with 2367 or three of those with two spades. You are going to lose plenty if you keep drawing to the non-nuts in multi-way pots. With experience it's can be ok, but not wise if you're new to the game. Heads up in a raise pot is different, but in a non-raised multi-way pot with players to act it's definitely only a flop call.

[billy the punter]

Re: Any PLO advice?

I dont know the odds in Omaha :$ I am vaguely aware though that a lot of draws are far far stronger in Omaha than in Holdem and that a draw is often ahead of a made hand - you can hold the nuts and be behind (I think!) - whilst shoving a draw in holdem is a semi bluff - shoving a draw in PLO can be for value cant it? If you're betting for value' date=' you dont mind if your opponent calls - you're not betting for fold equity.[/quote'] Yes but not a bare flush draw. A bare flush draw never ahead against a made hand. I may have bluffed a river previously but I certainly didn't play the flop and turn as I did here. PLUS, both draws hit. If the river was 2d then yes, good call and you're on the right track, but it wasn't. -EV making that call, massively so. Yes that would be good, in fact I thought about something similar the other day. Perhaps start a PL "Masterclass" for those areas some are getting into. SnG's, PLO. PL'ers can post game history for discussion. It's not about bragging, good and bad games can be cheery picked. :ok

[BAM]

Re: Any PLO advice?

My VPIP is 21% - do you think I'm playing too loose? I get the impression it's on the tightish side. Am I playing too many hands, or the wrong type of hands?

I get a feeling you are fishing in this thread GaF ;) but I'll play along. You know that the hands you have shown us are bad starting hands, if you dont please give up now. You also know a VPIP of 21% over your sample size means nothing. FYI I'm at 30% but would never put money in any pot with those hands in those positions. PS Please don't do a video ;)

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice? Definitely not fishing - genuinely trying to get into PLO and to improve .... however my thought process seems so far from what's needed, I'm already on the verge of giving up.... The 2369 double suited was a free look from the big blind. 4567 double suited in a hand with a min raise, and 2 callers and with so many players in, probably the blinds, from the button, isn't a playable hand? I confess I'm amazed by that. It's cheap (2xBB) against 5 opponents and a pretty good speculative hand?

[BAM]

Re: Any PLO advice?

Definitely not fishing - genuinely trying to get into PLO and to improve .... however my thought process seems so far from what's needed, I'm already on the verge of giving up.... The 2369 double suited was a free look from the big blind. 4567 double suited in a hand with a min raise, and 2 callers and with so many players in, probably the blinds, from the button, isn't a playable hand? I confess I'm amazed by that. It's cheap (2xBB) against 5 opponents and a pretty good speculative hand?

PLO is a nuts (or drawing to the nuts) game it is also more vital than NLHE to have position playing from the blinds is a no no but you got away with it on that hand in others you will lose big. The 4567 you are never going to be comfortable unless you flop quads or a straight flush. You play 6 combo hands where you lose small or win big. Sort your stats by hand grouping and by postion and look at it from bottom up, if you've played enough hands you will start to see a pattern. Recommended reading - anything by Rolf Slotboom :ok

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice?

if you dont please give up now

I've decided to take this advice ..... mostly prompted by the feedback from BTP on the 23456 wrap hand - that demonstrated to me just how far I was away from having any kind of feel for or real understanding of this game as I couldnt (and cant) really grasp that it's not a hand to get it in with on the flop ............. and besides, I've waaaaaaaaaay too much to learn on NLHE to spend any time fiddling about with 4 cards.... Thanks to everyone who took the time to give me feedback in this thread :ok

[averick]

Re: Any PLO advice? Its ok, I'm pretty clueless at PLO too:lol But if you really wanted the learn more about this variant a few highly recommended books on the topic would be very useful; I've browsed through a few of them before and was pretty sure I would improve by quite abit if I went through and digested the book. Can't remember the titles though, sorry!

[Woodie]

Re: Any PLO advice? I sucked at plo and compared to tohers I prob still do. I read that book I pmed you about and my game has improved. I've prob played under 10 omaha tournies in my career I made a small final table with about 60 runners if I remember correctly and I shipped one with over 400 runners quite recently. I wouldn't give up just yet although your right try get good at holdem first then move to omaha;)

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Any PLO advice?

I get a feeling you are fishing in this thread GaF ;) but I'll play along. You know that the hands you have shown us are bad starting hands, if you dont please give up now. You also know a VPIP of 21% over your sample size means nothing. FYI I'm at 30% but would never put money in any pot with those hands in those positions. PS Please don't do a video ;)

An article on PLO for low stakes in this months Poker Player by Nick Wealthall, might be of interest to you Gaf .... He mentions a brief outline of starting hands, and that 'Its possible to have a VPIP of anything from 18% to 40% and still be profitable' Also says Double suited Junk hands can even be played for a re-raise :D which made me think of this thread (Although his 'Junk Hand' example was :Jc::9s: :7c: :6s:) ........ mind you he does go on further into the article that 'Brian Martin runs like God' and 'Arsenal are going to win the Premiership', so you obviously have to take a lot of what he says as being pure fantasy

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice? Yes - the Nick Wealthall article was a big part of what got me going in this in the first place - he made it all sound so easy :lol :lol :lol

[BAM]

Re: Any PLO advice?

An article on PLO for low stakes in this months Poker Player by Nick Wealthall, might be of interest to you Gaf .... He mentions a brief outline of starting hands, and that 'Its possible to have a VPIP of anything from 18% to 40% and still be profitable' Also says Double suited Junk hands can even be played for a re-raise :D which made me think of this thread (Although his 'Junk Hand' example was :Jc::9s: :7c: :6s:) ........ mind you he does go on further into the article that 'Brian Martin runs like God' and 'Arsenal are going to win the Premiership', so you obviously have to take a lot of what he says as being pure fantasy

I had Nick sat two to my right for about 5 hours in a PLO game in Dublin and I totally destroyed him, mainly because he was playing 'junk hands' ;) He actually left the table saying he was never going to play PLO again and one of his mates commented I didn't think you was playing it today :lol

[BAM]

Re: Any PLO advice?

I've decided to take this advice ..... mostly prompted by the feedback from BTP on the 23456 wrap hand - that demonstrated to me just how far I was away from having any kind of feel for or real understanding of this game as I couldnt (and cant) really grasp that it's not a hand to get it in with on the flop ............. and besides, I've waaaaaaaaaay too much to learn on NLHE to spend any time fiddling about with 4 cards.... Thanks to everyone who took the time to give me feedback in this thread :ok

Don't give up GaF once you get the mechanics right it is a very straight forward game with much less thinking than a NLHE game. I was losing for about 3 months before things clicked and there are plenty of fish in the PLO sea. The trouble is I did it non-stop for over a year then when I fancied going back to NLHE for a while I had totally forgot how to play. I actually rang a well known HS cash player (who used to come on here) and cried about my hands I played that bad and asked for some advice but he just called me a one trick pony and told me to fcuk off ;)

[GaF]

Re: Any PLO advice?

please give up now.

Don't give up GaF

Wish you'd make your mind up :lol :lol :lol :tongue2