deadlydaveLDN Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Re: The right move ? give me 40k 3 times in 10 against 22 players and you 14k 7 times against 23 and I bet I win more cash than you How about I rephrase this before we agree to disagree? give glceud 40k 3 times in 10 against 22 players and glceud 14k 7 times against 23 and I bet glceud wins more cash with the 40k than the 14k give dave 40k 3 times in 10 against 22 players and dave 14k 7 times against 23 and I bet dave wins more cash with the 14k than the 40k :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Re: The right move ? 40k 3 times in 10 against 22 players VS 14k 7 times against 23 Why 7 times...if it's a fold everytime then it'll be 14K 10 times against 23, not 7. In effect the 40k 3 times (120) vs 14k 10 times (140) shows the loss of equity through calling. At this stage of the game so much depends on what your reads are on the two players, which is always a problem when discussing hands the next day. I would find it difficult to say I would fold or call as so much would depend on just how I felt about the hand at the moment my cursor moves across the options. I accept that the mathematics imply the fold is correct but AK sooted is a tough hand to fold at the best of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivrd Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Re: The right move ? I was putting the origanal raiser on poss 88, 99,10, jj even A Qo, now if he had been the only raiser i would have happily shoved with my AKs and gambled even though it was getting close to the money. But the re-raise was definetly ringing alarm bells for me and tbh there hadnt been that much action from the player before. I put him on KK, AA and wasnt prepared to gamble against two players with Ace high as i certainly felt dominated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? I was putting the origanal raiser on poss 88, 99,10, jj even A Qo, now if he had been the only raiser i would have happily shoved with my AKs and gambled even though it was getting close to the money. But the re-raise was definetly ringing alarm bells for me and tbh there hadnt been that much action from the player before. I put him on KK, AA and wasnt prepared to gamble against two players with Ace high as i certainly felt dominated. The first player made a 4BB raise which normally means a good hand (99+ -AQ+), then another player made a big 3bet, which normally is AK+ if the player is any good (and pompoy is a good player), so, the BEST CASE SCENARIO you were facing was being probably a 30% favorite to hit your aces. Im not a nit player, im not a player who plays for the bubble, so im giving my oppinion as a pretty agressive player and the right thing to do was exactly what you did ..... FOLD (I can say i have called with A high for my tournament life, and also have folded AK, AQ, QQ in the same instances) The mathematical part was already explained by Dave and he made it pretty clear, so, if anybody think being agressive means entering a pot when you are a big underdog to build a huge stack, well, that would be subjective, however, the objective thing to do IMO is take action when you are ahead and FOLDING when you know you're behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELCAKER Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? glceud, If you cant fold AK in this position then you need to stop playing $100 buyin multi's. Fact. It is mathematically the wrong play. If you made this play in this spot 1000 times you'd lose more than you'd win. Anyone with a modicum of ability or experience can see that AK, (which incidentally is just Ace f**kin' high) is going to be behind in this spot. Even if you were lucky enough to win this pot, you have shown to the rest of the table that you have the ability to massively overplay a hand. So what you going to do with your 40k stack? If you make donk calls like this now you'll be making them later and you'll be punished for it. YEs, you only have 14k but that it is still over 10bb's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? Hand 1 100% played itself. You cannot pass QQ to a short stack, not the way it was played anyhow. You still have 20k, no probs. Hand 2 I probably pass AK pre-flop more than any player out there. I'd bet that I do anyway, impossible to tell of course. Now I will answer this as honestly as I can, I know the answer obviously, but I assure you it's irrelevant to my answer. You are in bad shape, 100%. Pompoy has reraised a short stack, a raise he knows the short stack will call - therefore he has a premium hand. There is no way in the world you are in good shape. The best you can hope for is you're 38% (approx), facing two TT or 99 for example. Some may want to gamble (and hope that is what they are up against), in an attempt to gain a big stack. Ideally I'd like to know how many shorter (than you) stacks there were, but I'm still folding, this close to the bubble you need to get your chips in first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? glceud, If you cant fold AK in this position then you need to stop playing $100 buyin multi's. Fact. It is mathematically the wrong play. If you made this play in this spot 1000 times you'd lose more than you'd win. Anyone with a modicum of ability or experience can see that AK, (which incidentally is just Ace f**kin' high) is going to be behind in this spot. Even if you were lucky enough to win this pot, you have shown to the rest of the table that you have the ability to massively overplay a hand. So what you going to do with your 40k stack? If you make donk calls like this now you'll be making them later and you'll be punished for it. YEs, you only have 14k but that it is still over 10bb's. Yea, your right in fact I think I'll stop playing poker all together, unfortunatley as its been my only income over the past 10 years I'm going to have to continue. Feel free to spend my money any way you wish:cry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? glceud, If you cant fold AK in this position then you need to stop playing $100 buyin multi's. . I doubt if I've played 200 $100 buy in mtt's over the ten years so I doubt if my suggestions are relevent. One thing you said thats rubbish is that you'll be punished because of your "donk call". Truth is people are more likely to bet into you because you make "donk calls" and obviousley as you made this "donk call" in the knowledge that you are gambling to build a stack you will benefit from that. You are not some calling station you are some one who knows more about poker than the simple shove or fold strategy of a short stack and you have 40k chips to prove that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? Another constructive thread ;) It is nice to learn at the end of it that AK is just Ace fckin high as well (I have made a note of that for future reference) I also love how people assign a range to suit the maths :lol AK - get it in FFS what is wrong with you people, its not quite the new K3 but it is getting there. ps please come back Ed I'm missing your donk calls already :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? Loooking at the betting patterns it's quite obvious that the initial raiser has a/q off and the reraiser expecting a small pkt pair has k/q off. I'm more than happy to get my chips in as a 74% Fav Any way thats my last post in poker strategy(off in a huff), but when some internet wizz kid writes the book on taking incorrect odds in the knowledge that should you win the implied odds from you superioity as a poker player is +EV remember were you heard it first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Re: The right move ? I also love how people assign a range to suit the maths :lol I assigned ranges before I looked at the maths, and then added some at glceud's suggestions, which still made it a clear fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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