The right move ?

[Rivrd]

Had a rollercoaster of a night on the 18k G'tee on betfair last night but wanted to post up a couple of hands from last nights game to see what you think. Will post hand 1 first before the next one. As i stated i was literally the shortest stack and one point and then find myself 3rd in chips. The player in question here is hedger who i have come across a few times now and have him marked down as a tight player. HAND 1 NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee, Level:11 Blinds(250/500-50 ante) - Friday, August 28, 22:11:02 GMT 2009 $18,000 Guaranteed NL Hold'em #272915 Table 3 9-max (Real Money) Seat 1: footiebet ( 16,276.25 ) Seat 2: 5hortstak ( 27,986.71 ) Seat 3: BLACK RAIN ( 5,727.50 ) Seat 4: WannaCookie ( 18,327 ) Button: elabiii ( 34,631.01 ) SB: bluebirdsfc ( 9,847.50 ) BB: pom poy ( 19,249.37 ) Seat 8: hedger43 ( 7,091.17 ) Seat 9: dirrtydogg ( 14,823.76 ) Tourney Level:11 Blinds(250/500-50 ante) footiebet posts ante [50] 5hortstak posts ante [50] BLACK RAIN posts ante [50] WannaCookie posts ante [50] elabiii posts ante [50] bluebirdsfc posts ante [50] dirrtydogg posts ante [50] pom poy posts ante [50] hedger43 posts ante [50] bluebirdsfc posts small blind [250] pom poy posts big blind [500] Preflop: 5hortstak is dealt Q♦, Q♠ hedger43 raises to 1,200, dirrtydogg folds, footiebet folds, 5hortstak raises to 4,000, BLACK RAIN folds, WannaCookie folds, elabiii folds, bluebirdsfc folds, pom poy folds, hedger43 raises all in 7,041.17, 5hortstak calls 3,041.17 **Showdown** 5hortstak shows Q♦, Q♠ hedger43 shows K♥, K♦ Flop: 9♥, A♥, 7♦ Turn: A♣ River: 4♣ hedger43 wins 15,282.34 from main pot with two pair, Aces and Kings

[Hooloovoo]

Re: The right move ? Well what could he have? (let's forget we know already) He's so shortstacked (M slightly under 6) so the norm would be to push with a good (but not fantastic) hand here, hoping to double up. It's almost a min-raise actually, which should add to the alarm bells. But you don't have to care about that here, your hand is far to good to let go. You have him covered big time, you have the 3rd best hand: You want an all-in confrontation with no-one else involved. You don't really raised to 4,000, you raised to 7,000, since you "know" that he will push on you, there's no way he would just call your raise. Therefore, the exact size of the raise is not important, as long as it's big enough to keep the others out. His actual holding (which means you were unlucky) is not relevant

[JulioArca]

Re: The right move ? Standard play - you raised enough to show him you weren't folding and when he went allin it was an automatic call. If you had called then that may have let an Ace rag type of hand in the pot and you could have saved a few chips when the Ace flopped. However if the flop came Jack high you were still going to lose the chips anyway. Nice hand move on.

[Rivrd]

Re: The right move ? Hand 2 If i remember play is now roughly down to about 23 players left with top 18 getting payed. Have now been card dead for some time then i am faced with this hand in the BB NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee, Level:14 Blinds(500/1,000-100 ante) - Friday, August 28, 22:48:53 GMT 2009 $18,000 Guaranteed NL Hold'em #272915 Table 3 9-max (Real Money) BB: 5hortstak ( 15,412.42 ) Seat 3: BLACK RAIN ( 10,955 ) Seat 4: WannaCookie ( 15,787 ) Seat 5: elabiii ( 26,483.51 ) Seat 6: bluebirdsfc ( 10,437.50 ) Button: pom poy ( 31,003.74 ) SB: dirrtydogg ( 32,322.88 ) Tourney Level:14 Blinds(500/1,000-100 ante) 5hortstak posts ante [100] BLACK RAIN posts ante [100] WannaCookie posts ante [100] elabiii posts ante [100] bluebirdsfc posts ante [100] dirrtydogg posts ante [100] pom poy posts ante [100] dirrtydogg posts small blind [500] 5hortstak posts big blind [1,000] Preflop: 5hortstak is dealt K♦, A♦ BLACK RAIN folds, WannaCookie folds, elabiii folds, bluebirdsfc raises to 4,200, pom poy raises to 14,800, What would you have done ?

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ? Fold unless there was some history of stealing/re-stealing from the 2 players involved.

[ELCAKER]

Re: The right move ? Agree with Dave here....this is not a tournament winning hand just a tournament ending one! There'll be better spots, you're close enough to the money for it not to matter. One raiser, then I think pushing back is fair enough but following the re-raise I think the best move is to let it go...

[happyhornet]

Re: The right move ? You have to fold, no need to get involved. You are unlikely to be ahead and could be well behind.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: The right move ? Im assuming that Dirtydogg also folded from the SB after the button AI? Im folding here regardless. Chances are he is making the play with only two to act in the hope he can persuade both to fold, but Im not risking my tournament life here, particularly when still in a decent position to cash, so close to the bubble. You still have enough M to keep you going and also a chance that better cards will be on their way now.

[glceud]

Re: The right move ? Better spots? Better cards? There's 7 at the table probably 6 too before bubble bursts. you've 14k blinds 500/1000 and no doubt they will go up again before too long and your all folding AK? Sorry, but I never get better spots and cards at bubble time ( I must be really unlucky) In this case I'm delighted there's been enough action for me to possibly near treble up with this strong a hand. Get knocked out just fire up another $100 buy in $18k gtd tourney you aint got to get a taxi home!

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

Better spots? Better cards? There's 7 at the table probably 6 too before bubble bursts. you've 14k blinds 500/1000 and no doubt they will go up again before too long and your all folding AK? Sorry, but I never get better spots and cards at bubble time ( I must be really unlucky) In this case I'm delighted there's been enough action for me to possibly near treble up with this strong a hand. Get knocked out just fire up another $100 buy in $18k gtd tourney you aint got to get a taxi home!

I would prefer to shove with 72o if folded to me (obv we're BB here, but in any other position) to try to steal the blinds than effecrively call in after a raise and re-raise with AK. Tournament poker (and all other poker) is not about cards, but about situations. In this situation you are crushed most of the time, and never better than a flip. If you're dealt 72o on the button and shove, you will win the blinds almost evertime, you will very, very occassionally be called, and even then you can suck out a decent % of the time.

[ELCAKER]

Re: The right move ? Totally agree with Dave here. YEs it is hard to let AKs go but AK is only ace high and against 2 other players, who have both showed strength, you aren't anywhere near as strong as you might believe. Sorry, but I never get better spots and cards at bubble time ( I must be really unlucky) In this case I'm delighted there's been enough action for me to possibly near treble up with this strong a hand. Well you probably wont be trebling up!! I reckon you need to start being a little more aggresive - try pushing with "air" in unopened pots - you'll soon discover that people often dont have hands to call and you'll pick up enough pots to keep you in the game. You'll soon find you start to get a little luckier! Better players use bubble time to chip up against passive players, why not join them!

[glceud]

Re: The right move ?

I reckon you need to start being a little more aggresive - try pushing with "air" in unopened pots -

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol You've never seen me play poker;) Better players use the bubble to pick up pots against passive players? Yet your asuming your dominated here? You could easily be up against weaker high cards or low pairs here and as far as I can see unless your up against AA,KK or another AK plus a pair your getting the odds to call If you want to possibly limp into the money fair enough, fold, if you want to cash big, call.

[glceud]

Re: The right move ?

I would prefer to shove with 72o if folded to me (obv we're BB here' date=' but in any other position) to try to steal the blinds than effecrively call in after a raise and re-raise with AK. Tournament poker (and all other poker) is not about cards, but about situations. In this situation you are crushed most of the time, and never better than a flip. If you're dealt 72o on the button and shove, you will win the blinds almost evertime, you will very, very occassionally be called, and even then you can suck out a decent % of the time.[/quote'] Straight from the text book, unfortunatly every one has read that book now and since Harrington wrote "the bible" the one big change in tourney poker has been calling ranges and their widening. If Ak still is'nt in your range you need to "start being a little more aggressive";)

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ? We're going to have to agree to disagree here. "Everyone" hasn't read Harrington's book. Believe it or not, most online players are recreational players who don't read forums/books/think much about strategy. Like I said originally, if the 2 players are aggressive with a history of stealing/re-stealing, I can't get my chips in quick enough. But otherwise , the fold is the correct move until someone shows me some math that contradicts this. Edit : The player that RIVRD said was tight was the other hand. But he has not said that either of the other players was getting out of line, so I assume they were reasonably tight unless he tell us otherwise.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

You getting mixed up with hand 1 :unsure as above posts are regards to hand 2

Everything I said except for thinking you were saying he was a tight player was hand 2. have edited my reply to reflect that

[Rivrd]

Re: The right move ? This is how the hand panned out After being card dead for so long, it looked a monster,and was so so tempted to call but with the way i was playing and the action before me, felt i made the right decision and wasnt worth the risk. 5hortstak posts big blind [1,000] Preflop: 5hortstak is dealt K♦, A♦ BLACK RAIN folds, WannaCookie folds, elabiii folds, bluebirdsfc raises to 4,200, pom poy raises to 14,800, dirrtydogg folds, 5hortstak folds, bluebirdsfc calls all in 6,137.50, Returning uncalled bet 4,462.50 to pom poy **Showdown** bluebirdsfc shows T♥, T♦ pom poy shows K♠, K♣ Flop: 8♠, 8♥, J♥ Turn: A♠ :puke River: 5♦ pom poy wins 22,875 from main pot with two pair, Kings and Eights

[RuleBritannia]

Re: The right move ?

This is how the hand panned out After being card dead for so long, it looked a monster, but with the way i was playing and the action before me, felt i made the right decision and wasnt worth the risk. 5hortstak posts big blind [1,000] Preflop: 5hortstak is dealt K♦, A♦ BLACK RAIN folds, WannaCookie folds, elabiii folds, bluebirdsfc raises to 4,200, pom poy raises to 14,800, dirrtydogg folds, 5hortstak folds, bluebirdsfc calls all in 6,137.50, Returning uncalled bet 4,462.50 to pom poy **Showdown** bluebirdsfc shows T♥, T♦ pom poy shows K♠, K♣ Flop: 8♠, 8♥, J♥ Turn: A♠ :puke River: 5♦ pom poy wins 22,875 from main pot with two pair, Kings and Eights

Ed's stupidity, SORRY bravery ;);););), would have won the day. FWIW, long term I personally think you made the right call.......not perhaps in this game, but you could play the hand another 99 times and maybe get the same result a couple of times only.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

Ed's stupidity, SORRY bravery ;);););), would have won the day. FWIW, long term I personally think you made the right call.......not perhaps in this game, but you could play the hand another 99 times and maybe get the same result a couple of times only.

He definitely made the right play 1,370,754 games 0.047 secs 29,164,978 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 19.512% 19.41% 00.11% 266012 1449.67 { TdTh } Hand 1: 52.623% 52.41% 00.21% 718479 2849.67 { KcKs } Hand 2: 27.865% 27.66% 00.21% 379114 2849.67 { AdKd }

[glceud]

Re: The right move ?

Ed's stupidity, SORRY bravery ;);););), would have won the day. FWIW, long term I personally think you made the right call.......not perhaps in this game, but you could play the hand another 99 times and maybe get the same result a couple of times only.

Very unlucky to only get it a couple of times(28 times is nearer the mark;)) Add in all the other possible holdings( this is one of the worst) and your nearly getting the right odds to call. The important thing is are you good enough to play poker with 40k chips to Guarantee a high finish, or do you just want to play basic short stack strategy and hope to get lucky? Good players make the call the rest of us fold and double our buyins .

[glceud]

Re: The right move ?

He definitely made the right play 1,370,754 games 0.047 secs 29,164,978 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 19.512% 19.41% 00.11% 266012 1449.67 { TdTh } Hand 1: 52.623% 52.41% 00.21% 718479 2849.67 { KcKs } Hand 2: 27.865% 27.66% 00.21% 379114 2849.67 { AdKd }

Your up there with Phil Ivy if you knew he had Kings:notworthy

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

Good players make the call the rest of us fold and double our buyins .

Absolute rubbish. I play very LAG (around 33/31 in full ring MTTs) in an attempt to finish in the top few spots, as min-cashes don't massively interest me. But you have to still play sensibly, and calling here is just gambling.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

Your up there with Phil Ivy if you knew he had Kings:notworthy

He's sat there with 30k, and instead of shoving he raises 3x?! Pretty obviously a monster unless (as I've said twice already) there is a history of re-stealing.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: The right move ?

Very unlucky to only get it a couple of times(28 times is nearer the mark;)) Add in all the other possible holdings( this is one of the worst) and your nearly getting the right odds to call. The important thing is are you good enough to play poker with 40k chips to Guarantee a high finish, or do you just want to play basic short stack strategy and hope to get lucky? Good players make the call the rest of us fold and double our buyins .

Im not a numbers man....... YET. I was guessing :ok Way off..... but guessing. :ok

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ? If we assign some slightly different ranges we get Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 4,441,242,960 games 5.063 secs 877,195,923 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 31.970% 31.86% 00.11% 1414994472 4880688.00 { 99-55 } Hand 1: 39.013% 33.53% 05.48% 1489303620 243347352.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo } Hand 2: 29.017% 23.54% 05.48% 1045369476 243347352.00 { AKs } In which case a fold is still correct

[glceud]

Re: The right move ?

. But you have to still play sensibly' date=' and calling here is just gambling.[/quote'] And waiting untill your short stacked and shoving with any two is'nt?

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

And waiting untill your short stacked and shoving with any two is'nt?

With 14 big blinds you can profitably shove most cards from the cutoff (assuming the players to act after you are reasonably tight, if they're loose you can't do this), pick up the blinds and antes (2200), do this a few times and you're no longer short-stacked. That most definitely isn't gambling, is just sensible poker. Like above, even if you include a few weaker hands in the 3-bettors range, it doesn't really help you, just the shortstacker. The fact is that you will never get bigger fold equity in poker than in this situation (bubble play with a slightly larger than short-stack), so you might as well use it

[glceud]

Re: The right move ?

If we assign some slightly different ranges we get Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 4,441,242,960 games 5.063 secs 877,195,923 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 31.970% 31.86% 00.11% 1414994472 4880688.00 { 99-55 } Hand 1: 39.013% 33.53% 05.48% 1489303620 243347352.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo } Hand 2: 29.017% 23.54% 05.48% 1045369476 243347352.00 { AKs } In which case a fold is still correct

So neither have a/q,/a/j, or kq and lets ignore total nothing hands like AA and KK

[glceud]

Re: The right move ?

With 14 big blinds you can profitably shove most cards from the cutoff (assuming the players to act after you are reasonably tight, if they're loose you can't do this), pick up the blinds and antes (2200), do this a few times and you're no longer short-stacked. That most definitely isn't gambling, is just sensible poker. Like above, even if you include a few weaker hands in the 3-bettors range, it doesn't really help you, just the shortstacker. The fact is that you will never get bigger fold equity in poker than in this situation (bubble play with a slightly larger than short-stack), so you might as well use it

Think you'll find its more of a problem at this stage if the players before you are loose(if they are you wont get the chance to shove) Any way as we will have to agree to disagree give me 40k 3 times in 10 against 22 players and you 14k 7 times against 23 and I bet I win more cash than you:dude

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

So neither have a/q' date='/a/j, or kq and lets ignore total nothing hands like AA and KK[/quote'] You're mis-reading it. JJ+ is JJ QQ KK and AA. The 3-bettor never has worse than AK unless he's an aggressive re-stealer. And RIVRD hasn't said he is. I will add AJ and AQ to the shortstack's range + that gives us the following (which improves us a bit) Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 6,941,498,256 games 8.109 secs 856,023,955 games/sec Board: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 42.642% 35.48% 07.16% 2462810736 497215674.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo } Hand 1: 26.248% 25.82% 00.43% 1792172520 29854986.00 { 99-55, AQs-AJs, AQo-AJo } Hand 2: 31.109% 23.86% 07.25% 1656223812 503220528.00 { AKs }

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: The right move ?

Think you'll find its more of a problem at this stage if the players before you are loose(if they are you wont get the chance to shove) Any way as we will have to agree to disagree give me 40k 3 times in 10 against 22 players and you 14k 7 times against 23 and I bet I win more cash than you:dude

Keep dreaming. Plus it's definitely more of a problem if the players after you act are loose. Even if those before you are loose they are likely to be passive (which is better cos you get their 1000 too), and there will still be 1 or 2 chances per round to shove.