slapdash Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 In this month's WPT Poker magazine, there's an article about Badugi by Matt Broughton. At one point he says: In Badugi you are always looking to make a nuts hand (e.g. :As::2h::3d::4c:) or as close as possible, so if you start with any TWO of these cards (e.g. :Kh::2d::3c::3h:) it's worth taking at least the first draw unless it has been three-bet. You also need to consider the blocking cards you hold. For example, in the above hand the king is a duffer (dump it!) and you have a pair of threes, so one of those will have to go. The good news here is that the king is a heart, so of the two threes in your hand you should dump the three of hearts. The reasoning here is that you now have one less high heart card to worry about picking up. Does anybody understand the last bit? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag think he means you should keep not throw the 3h as one of the big hearts is gone,just a misprint id guess:unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag think he means you should keep not throw the 3h as one of the big hearts is gone' date='just a misprint id guess:unsure[/quote'] I thought it might be a misprint, but in that case I don't understand the emphasis on it being a high heart. If you keep the heart then you're more likely to draw a Badugi than if you keep the club, although the difference only consists of the Badugis that include :Kc:. I also thought that possibly he was claiming that if you threw the heart, and if you drew a Badugi, then it's more likely that it's a good Badugi. Which is true, but more than compensated for by the fact that you're less likely to draw a Badugi at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag I've PM'ed Swampster to see if he can get some clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swampster Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag i'll email the goatee'd wonder for clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag i'll email the goatee'd wonder for clarification. Ta. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWaster Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag Hi all Sorry for the confusion - it wasn't a typo, just me running out of space and obviously not explaining myself very clearly - forgive me! So, to the hand in question... With Kh 2d 3c 3h as a starting hand, and with all draws remaining we: 1) Want to dump the King. Drawing to a king-high badugi is a -EV move. 2) Have to dump one of the threes as we can't make Badugi with a pair in our hand. The point I was trying to make was that some beginners might think it doesn't matter which of the threes they dump, BUT: If we dump the 3c there are potentially six clubs in the deck we might draw that we are happy(ish) to see: Ac 2c 4c 5c 6c 7c and six clubs we're not so happy to see: 8c 9c 10c Jc Qc Kc However, because we are dumping the king of hearts - and therefore know we can't pick that up as a redrawn heart - we now have six hearts we are happy(ish) to see: Ah 2h 4h 5h 6h 7h and only FIVE hearts we're not so happy to see: 8h 9h 10h Jh Qh. So the only point I was really trying to make was that people immediately recognise that they have to dump the king (hopefully!), but then don't think it matters which of the threes they dump. I hope this makes a little more sense, and sorry again for the initial confusion! Cheers Matt B :drums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag Thanks for taking the time to reply, Matt, and :welcome to Punters Lounge. I'm afraid I'm not convinced, though. Apart from the :Kc:, exactly the same clubs and hearts are out, so if we ditch :3c: then we're exactly as likely to make any particular draw that doesn't include :Kc: as we are to make the corresponding draw (with hearts and clubs switched) if we ditch :3h:. So apart from the times when we draw :Kc:, it's irrelevant which three we ditch. But what if we do draw :Kc:? Well, it's not a great card to draw either way, but wouldn't we rather have kept :3h: rather than :3c:? At least that way the :Kc: doesn't duplicate one of the suits we've kept. Or to put it another way, in terms of your "cards we're unhappy to see", it's true that if we ditch :3c: then there are more clubs we're unhappy to see than there are hearts we're unhappy to see if we ditch :3h:, but we're unhappy to see :Kc: either way (and a bit more unhappy if we've kept :3c:), so either way the total number of cards we're unhappy to see is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWaster Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag Hi Slapdash. Your points are correct - we are dealing in tiny differences - but the fact that you have to keep saying "Apart from the :Kc:..." and "So apart from the times when we draw :Kc:, it's irrelevant..." etc. proves that the existence of the :Kc: in the deck does make a difference (otherwise you wouldn't have to keep acknowledging it). I know it's only one card and therefore a tiny percentage of change, but in poker it's those tiny positive percentages that add up. If you had to play russian roulette would you rather have a 12-chamber gun with 6 bullets and 6 empties, or an 11-chamber gun with 5 bullets and 6 empties? The first gun is 50/50 you kill yourself, while the other is slightly better. It's not MUCH better, but sometimes slightly is enough. :hope Hope that makes sense. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag I don't understand any of this (I will learn Badugi one day...) - just one word of warning Matt - slapdash is a professer of Maths and never wrong in anything he says :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag Hi Slapdash. Your points are correct - we are dealing in tiny differences - but the fact that you have to keep saying "Apart from the :Kc:..." and "So apart from the times when we draw :Kc:, it's irrelevant..." etc. proves that the existence of the :Kc: in the deck does make a difference (otherwise you wouldn't have to keep acknowledging it). I know it's only one card and therefore a tiny percentage of change, but in poker it's those tiny positive percentages that add up. If you had to play russian roulette would you rather have a 12-chamber gun with 6 bullets and 6 empties, or an 11-chamber gun with 5 bullets and 6 empties? The first gun is 50/50 you kill yourself, while the other is slightly better. It's not MUCH better, but sometimes slightly is enough. :hope Hope that makes sense. Matt I agree with you that it's a very slight difference. I agree with you that very slight differences add up, and you should take them into account if possible. But I wasn't saying "it's only a slight difference, so you shouldn't worry about it" (i.e., I wasn't just "acknowledging" that there was a difference). I was disagreeing about which way that very slight difference points. In other words, I think that your 11-chamber gun with 5 bullets and 6 empties actually has 6 bullets and 5 empties. (Are there 11-chamber guns, by the way? :unsure) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag I don't understand any of this (I will learn Badugi one day...) - just one word of warning Matt - slapdash is a professer of Maths and never wrong in anything he says :tongue2 Crawler! :eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag If you are happy to see the 2 of hearts or clubs....what on earth did you do with the 2 of diamonds. :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avongirl Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag I don't understand any of this (I will learn Badugi one day...) It's easy - 4 different cards, 4 different suits. Play low. :ok (Are there 11-chamber guns' date= by the way? :unsure) :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag On a serious note... You are hoping for the same number of cards in each scenario. Is it legit to compare that number against the remaining cards of that suit...or should you consider the total of duff cards in the pack which would be the same in both cases? Then it would make no difference which one you discarded. My instincts would say scrap the club as this leaves you with one additional card in the pack to complete a Badugi of any kind. Anyway...it's a bloody stupid game...innit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag I agree with you that it's a very slight difference. I agree with you that very slight differences add up' date=' and you should take them into account if possible. But I wasn't saying "it's only a slight difference, so you shouldn't worry about it" (i.e., I wasn't just "acknowledging" that there was a difference). I was disagreeing about which way that very slight difference points. In other words, I think that your 11-chamber gun with 5 bullets and 6 empties actually has 6 bullets and 5 empties.[/quote'] I was posting in a hurry when I wrote this, so just to expand: My point wasn't that there wasn't much difference. I was just trying to analyze which way the (small) difference pointed. The only thing that makes a difference between discarding :3c: and :3h: is the fact that the king you're discarding is :Kh:. If you removed :Kc: from the deck then there would be no reason to choose one suit over the other. So unless you draw :Kc: you are equally likely to get a good hand whichever 3 you discard. But if you do draw :Kc:, which 3 would you prefer to have kept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 Re: Badugi article in WPT mag Or to put it more succinctly ... I agree with Dodger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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