What would you need to hold to call?

[RuleBritannia]

I can't find the HH on this fcuked up machine of mine, so will set up the scenario as best as I can remember. This caused a bit of a fight on the FT of th super series the other night, all sorts of insults thrown about etc..... but just wondering what you would do in this situation and what you would need to be holding to call? For scenario purposes I will put seat 1 as 1st to act and so forth.... 9 players left and prizes as we know are top heavy........ Blinds 2k/4k Seat 1(105k) - FOLDS Seat 2 - FOLDS Seat 3 - FOLDS Seat 4 (60k)- Raises to 20k Seat 5 (120k)- FOLDS Seat 6 - FOLDS Seat 7 - Button - FOLDS Seat 8 - SB - FOLDS Seat 9 (88k)- (me) BB - Calls All In Seat 4 - Thinks for a while then FOLDS. I had been playing quite aggressively on the FT, after being fairly passive/tight to actually get to the FT in the first place. Having no SURE knowledge of what I had, and knowing that you have only 10x BB left and one of the small stacked, after having initially raised for 1/3 of your stack, what would you have needed to hold in your hands for you to actually call? By that I mean, what are you not folding here and what are you folding?

[Hooloovoo]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? What hand could he have? The question is what his intention with the raise was. Hardly a steal with so many left to act? :unsure Is he raising for value with a legitimate hand? Before his raise he have a M of 10, which makes him not desperate in any way, but i can't really see what he would raise with for 1/3 of his stack, only to later fold? Especially with top heavy prizes you have to take some chances as one of the smaller stacks, your primary aim should always be to win the whole thing. As you stated, he thinks for awhile and then folded, which makes me think he raised with something like AT, AJ, low pocket, some hand that is quite strong, but when you push he gets cold feet and realize he may be dominated. So it looks like a mistake from him. So to answer your question, it depends on what the intention of the raise was (and a lot of other factors not described in your post) Maybe i'm just rambling but that's just some thoughts

[AJ]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? Him or you. At this stage he's in for a third of his stack, I'd call with 10 10 and above and AK suited. Unless you're holding KK or above I don't like your push. You've put him in a hard position to get out of, you've goota have the cards to take him down.

[billy the punter]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? Without sounding awkward, ideally I'd need details of the other stacks and when the level was changing. Unless there were some really short stacks, I would be calling with any hand I thought good enough to raise with in the first place. IF there were mini-stacks then I wouln't be raising with with non-premium hands anyway with 60k. So, I would be calling regardless here.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

What hand could he have? The question is what his intention with the raise was. Hardly a steal with so many left to act? :unsure Is he raising for value with a legitimate hand? Before his raise he have a M of 10,

The fact he folded, to me made it look like he was trying to take the blinds. Yes, he thought about it, but if he was really serious about taking the pot, he should be shoving here surely?

Him or you. At this stage he's in for a third of his stack, I'd call with 10 10 and above and AK suited. Unless you're holding KK or above I don't like your push. You've put him in a hard position to get out of, you've goota have the cards to take him down.

Im holding AA, but he is not to know that. Actually, Im shoving all in against what I see as a weak looking raise, (conserving some chips clearly) with JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AKs and taking my chances in a race if he calls. I actually had an inkling he wasn't going to call because if he is raising to get some action (rather than shoving), then a smaller raise or a flat call would have more than likely got himself a flop to see. (as it happens, I was going AI regardless.) Can't afford to slow play AA here IMO.

Without sounding awkward, ideally I'd need details of the other stacks and when the level was changing. .

Roughly.... Seat 1 - 105k Seat 2 - 40k Seat 3 - 90k Seat 4 - 60k Seat 5 - 120k Seat 6 - 55k Button - 90k SB - 70k BB - 88k The order was like above for about 7 or 8 hands, maybe more with everyone just folding round to the BB's. Levels were changing after this hand. (This was last hand before the break), I forgot about that, so in essence he left himself with 5xBB, as the levels were going to 4k/8k.

[muttley]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

Can't afford to slow play AA here IMO.

Don't see why not. You could have flat called and then put him allin whatever came on the flop. If he is calling with a hand like (A.J) and a Jack shows then happy days!

[RuleBritannia]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

Don't see why not. You could have flat called and then put him allin whatever came on the flop. If he is calling with a hand like (A.J) and a Jack shows then happy days!

Alternatively, I flat call for 25% of my stack, just to see a flop and it hits 4 9 J, (lets say for talking sake, villain has 44, and Ive put him on AJ), he's shoving AI and Im putting him on a JJ so thinking I have him beat, call. Nah, for me personally Im shoving every time here with AA and take my chances in a race, at least that way I know Im ahead when the money has gone in and can be satisfied regardless of the outcome. Just to add, he wasn't sitting on 44, I just used that as an example.

[billy the punter]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? Now I've seen the stacks my opinion doesn't alter. You shouldn't really be folding any hand you saw fit good enough to raise in early position with in the first place. If that makes sense....

[RuleBritannia]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? Understand what you mean Billy.... Well here is why the table exploded into an argument. (that I stayed out of btw). After I took the pot, he chatted "Thought about going for it there", chancing my arm I replied "with"?? He answered QQ. Only other thing I said was, no way could I have folded QQ, and he replied with well, I thought with your call you were on AA, KK, AK or AQ and I didnt fancy my chances. :lol :lol I just took it as bollocks. The raise was too small for QQ IMO. Short stacked (ish) on FT, you are shoving with that hand Pre-Flop. (Well, I am every time). Table went into an uproar, all sorts of insults flying his way from a couple of them...... It did get me thinking though, would he really have folded QQ when he had no real info on me? As I said, I was being fairly aggressive on the FT, having gone onto it 9th of 10, so could have gone AI with anything really... Felt sorry for him 1st hand after the break though, (albeit with only 5x BB), he shoved AI with TT and lost the race against AQ.

[Junior]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? QQ = BS Most likely he made an impulsive raise (read: mistake) which he regretted when you went over the top, and tried to cover his weakness by saying he had a strong hand. When the comments started coming there's no way he's going to turn around and say "Oh yeah, actually, I was only saying I had QQ ... I only had 44". Where did you finish RB?

[happyhornet]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? If you raise to steal and someone comes over the top and you feel you need to fold (as potentially the villain did here), one bit of advice..don't talk about your hand!! I was at a table when a guy folded similarly to a shove, he had odds of about 3-1 to call and folded, and then showed KK. In the chat box he advised " I knew you had AA" to the shover:loon. He had the shit ripped out of him for about 20 minutes by half the table, he went massively on tilt and got knocked out! In answer to your question RB, whatever he had to raise with for 1/3 of his stack should be good enough to call with.

[muttley]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

Nah, for me personally Im shoving every time here with AA

Me too,probably. There are other ways to play it though, and the stop/go play can be effective against a single loose raiser.

[glceud]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

Unless there were some really short stacks, I would be calling with any hand I thought good enough to raise with in the first place.

What are you playing? a full ring FL cash game? or are you seriously saying you only rise with hands that can with stand a reraise? AJ your seriously only reraising with KK or AA? Replys on here, I'm begining to think I'm turning LAG.

[billy the punter]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

What are you playing? a full ring FL cash game? or are you seriously saying you only rise with hands that can with stand a reraise?

When I'm in EARLY POSITION, with that stack, at those blinds thhen YES, without doubt. I've never been surer of any poker answer ever. If you think you should be putting 20k (of 60k) in the pot in early position but would fold to a reraise then I wish you good luck in future tournaments. ;)

[AJ]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

What are you playing? a full ring FL cash game? or are you seriously saying you only rise with hands that can with stand a reraise? AJ your seriously only reraising with KK or AA? Replys on here, I'm begining to think I'm turning LAG.

Yeah, final table with a decent stack. Four players shorter than me. I'd need to know the payout structure to be sure, but gut feel is i'd want to avoid a race at this stage and let it go. There'll be better chances, I'd certainly not play it with AKs or the like. In terms of the other guy, he's got a third of his stack in and is going to struggle to get away from the hand. Not happy to race from his seat, but would do it. On reflection I'd call your push with 4 4 and hope you had AKs or the like.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

Where did you finish RB?

2nd.....

If you raise to steal and someone comes over the top and you feel you need to fold (as potentially the villain did here), one bit of advice..don't talk about your hand!! .

Yeah, I agree mate. He started the convo by saying he thought about it..... I only chanced my arm in asking what he had. Didnt expect him to answer.

I'd need to know the payout structure to be sure,.

From here on in.... 9th = $76.24 8th = $102.76 7th = $132.60 6th = $165.65 5th = $190.90 4th = $265.20 3rd = $331.50 2nd = $513.82 1st = $895.05 Buy in was $7.50 + $0.75 :ok

[daviej1873]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? well done RB i was 2nd in a ladbrokes NLHE tournie and the buy in was $3 and 50c! think i got $287 which for just over 2pound suited me! im finding the MTTs the best as sit n go is just the cut throat mob. Looking to land a decent pot over the weekend so il let you know how i go

[ubermonkey1]

Re: What would you need to hold to call? no way in the world i'd be folding q's there,i think i would have pushed with them anyway , so i wouldn't have needed to call anyway. out of interest did you not think of flat calling his raise:unsure say he had something like 7s/8s/9s/10s /aq (this is what i reckon his range is),he might well fold in his situation as there's a big chance you've an overpair or ak and he could be way behind.he still has a workable stack left so doesn't have to call. i always think if someone goes allin when i look pretty pot commited then they want the call;),faced with that and a pair of 7s in my hand i think i'd be folding:ok. you know your hu in the pot already, so i would try and let him hang himself,okay he might donk you occasionally but that would happen if you were all in pre;) if he had a big enough hand to call your reraise, say js+ and ak :unsurethere's a good chance he will put it all in along the line,with 2 aces gone its a lot less likely the ace thats likely to scare em off will hit ,so you shouldnt lose much there by not going all in pre. overall i'm with billy on this, if it's not a big enough hand to stand the reraise then you cant play it from that position,nearer the button yes but from early mid pos then no.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: What would you need to hold to call?

no way in the world i'd be folding q's there,i think i would have pushed with them anyway , so i wouldn't have needed to call anyway. out of interest did you not think of flat calling his raise:unsure say he had something like 7s/8s/9s/10s /aq (this is what i reckon his range is),he might well fold in his situation as there's a big chance you've an overpair or ak and he could be way behind.he still has a workable stack left so doesn't have to call. i always think if someone goes allin when i look pretty pot commited then they want the call;),faced with that and a pair of 7s in my hand i think i'd be folding:ok. you know your hu in the pot already, so i would try and let him hang himself,okay he might donk you occasionally but that would happen if you were all in pre;) if he had a big enough hand to call your reraise, say js+ and ak :unsurethere's a good chance he will put it all in along the line,with 2 aces gone its a lot less likely the ace thats likely to scare em off will hit ,so you shouldnt lose much there by not going all in pre. overall i'm with billy on this, if it's not a big enough hand to stand the reraise then you cant play it from that position,nearer the button yes but from early mid pos then no.

On this occasion mate, No I didnt think for one second about just flat calling and I am certain that I wouldnt in future either. The problem I have here is, his range is so big. The way Im viewing this, is that he has left himself with 2/3 of his chips, but only 5xBB (M=3.33), which is workable when still having 9 players, no antes but not ideal. So, Im thinking to myself as it's coming round to me that... the key points are (IMO, and someone feel free to shoot me down if Im way off)

• He wants to see a flop if possible, but preferrabely everyone folding to the raise
• He is not too keen on the idea of racing, otherwise would have shoved initially
• No matter what I do, this is the one point in this hand that I can GUARANTEE I'm ahead when getting the chips in.
• If I lose the race, I have 3 x BB left (M=2.33).

With the top point, Im not putting him on any pocket pair, as chance of hitting a set aren't brilliant, particularly as he has no idea if Im sitting with any the other 2 to make his set. (or indeed any of the others still to act). So, Im personally thinking, 2 high cards, maybe AJ, AT, KQs, QJs or something along those lines. AQ and AK could have possibly been shoved, so again am ruling these out. (probably naively). So. having placed him in my mind, on one of the above, I believe I am well ahead at this point, so get my money in when I know its good. I lose now, Im happy Im in whilst ahead. One thing my mentor has taught me that won't escape me. Lets say he calls, 4c,9c,Jh comes out. I've got him on AQ, AJ, AT (OR QJs, QKs). So the best I have him on now, is A pair of J's. He now could have many ways of winning this pot, if we shove em all in in my mind and bearing in mind I am more than happy to do so knowing Im ahead I'm AI here (this is me flat calling the 1st one btw, in case I never mentioned that). So now, to beat me, he is needing runner, runner for the straight if he has AT or JQ. If he has QK, he needs a 10 from two cards. I don't know if he has 2 club cards, so again could be on a flush draw from 2 cards. All scenarios I would have faced anyway, with the pre-flop AI, but as I said, it is key to me, especially in this situation that I get em in good. For instance, having placed him on the above, and he is actually sitting with 44 or 99 and I havent even given either pair a second thought, Im well behind, and only have 2 outs from 2 cards, so my money is going in well behind, and I am pissed off with myself for not going in p-f. So, in asnwer until my reading abilities on opponents, and I learn how to work out entire ranges, I am AIPF every time here. :ok