muttley Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 What's the correct play in this situation? 7 players left out of 45 starters, first 6 played. I've got the 4th biggest stack, M=4.5. Biggest stack is M=12 and is the BB. My hand in the cut off is (7,7) and it's folded round to me. Everyone has me covered. I've got here by playing good solid poker, and have not shoved preflop in the tournament so far. What to do? Raise, shove or fold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I probably shove :unsure Assuming a standard (top heavy) payout structure. The flatter the structure, the higher the reason to fold to ladder up. How low are the 3 stacks shorter than you? They're all to your right? If 1 or 2 of them are very short (M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Do you want to win the tourny or limp into money. If you want to win then has to be a shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Do you want to win the tourny or limp into money. If you want to win then has to be a shove. You have to get in the money in order to win a tourny. ;) We need more info, what are the blinds, what are the short stacks? However, I think I'm folding 99% of the time here. The risk of elimination to win one and a half blinds isn't worth the blind gamble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I'm guessing 6th place pays back your initial stake so I'm not bothered about getting my money back here so I'm shoving 100% of the time! Agree with staffy in that it depends on your attitude to the game, if you wana limp into the cash then by all means fold, however if you wana win the tourney then you really can't be laying these hands down! :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugleh Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play You have to get in the money in order to win a tourny. ;) We need more info, what are the blinds, what are the short stacks? However, I think I'm folding 99% of the time here. The risk of elimination to win one and a half blinds isn't worth the blind gamble. Assuming there are no antes, he has about 7 BBs (since his M=4.5). I think this is a shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Assuming there are no antes' date=' he has about 7 BBs (since his M=4.5). I think this is a shove.[/quote'] I have no idea what M=4.5 means, so missed that. :$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I'm guessing 6th place pays back your initial stake so I'm not bothered about getting my money back here so I'm shoving 100% of the time! Agree with staffy in that it depends on your attitude to the game, if you wana limp into the cash then by all means fold, however if you wana win the tourney then you really can't be laying these hands down! :ok Say you had 30 times the BB, with 3 low stacks elsewhere, you still push 100%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugleh Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play M is a description of how many rounds you will last on the table before blinded out (if the blinds and antes stay the same). So if SB=100 and BB=200 and my stack is 1200 then my M is 4. And if in addition there is an ante of 20 (at 10 handed table) then my M is 2.4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I probably shove :unsure Assuming a standard (top heavy) payout structure. The flatter the structure, the higher the reason to fold to ladder up. How low are the 3 stacks shorter than you? The lowest stack had M about 3, maybe 3.5. The payout structure was $155.25 for 6th up to $1,179.90 for 1st, $69 buy-in. I shoved and got called by the button, (A,Q). We both flopped air, 8 on the turn, A on the river. So it goes. I'm not looking for sympathy, we can all come up with hard luck stories, I just want to know if I played it right, because I suspect there is a hole in my game around the bubble. A double up would have moved me up to 2nd place, and crippled the button, so I'm confident i would have finished in the money. Thanks for all the advice so far guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play The lowest stack had M about 3, maybe 3.5. The payout structure was $155.25 for 6th up to $1,179.90 for 1st, $69 buy-in. I shoved and got called by the button, (A,Q). We both flopped air, 8 on the turn, A on the river. So it goes. I'm not looking for sympathy, we can all come up with hard luck stories, I just want to know if I played it right, because I suspect there is a hole in my game around the bubble. A double up would have moved me up to 2nd place, and crippled the button, so I'm confident i would have finished in the money. Thanks for all the advice so far guys! So really the four low stacks where quite close together? Even so I probably pass here. According to your first post the three smaller stacks are on your right and all three are about to hit go through the blinds. I play to make a profit every time I play a tourn. You're long odds on to pass your way to a cash here. Is the reward of one and a half blinds big enough to risk this near-certain profit? Not for me. Many will disagree and you were did get your money in when in front, but I rarely want a 50/50 at any time, a 50/50 on the bubble makes me queasy. This is based on the exact situation (big stacks to left, CL in BB etc) :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play This is based on the exact situation (big stacks to left, CL in BB etc) :ok Yes, exactly as I described, and yes, I was left looking at the "you finished in 7th place" thinking "Now why did I do that?" So what sort of hands am I waiting for? Are there any hands I can raise or are they all push or fold once M drops below 5? I think I had 5400 chips, blinds were 300/600. Also, was the caller right to call with (A,Q)? He had under 6,000 chips, so would have been crippled had he lost the showdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Yes, exactly as I described, and yes, I was left looking at the "you finished in 7th place" thinking "Now why did I do that?" So what sort of hands am I waiting for? Are there any hands I can raise or are they all push or fold once M drops below 5? I think I had 5400 chips, blinds were 200/400. Also, was the caller right to call with (A,Q)? He had under 6,000 chips, so would have been crippled had he lost the showdown. Without question, his call was incorrect. But people make incorrect calls all the time, opponents bad play has to be factored in to your decisions, especially these difficult ones. If I were the two places down the ladder I would be pushing. In your position I would need 99+ or AK before thinking about pushing. But that's just me. It's not just anout your stack in relation to the blinds, how low others are is key. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I'm not looking for sympathy, we can all come up with hard luck stories, I just want to know if I played it right, because I suspect there is a hole in my game around the bubble. Im very much a poker novice in an in no poisition to be offering advice on this particular hand, especially as the buy in is about 40% of my entire bankroll. However, I reckon it would be impossible for anyone to judge how you play the bubble, and whether there is a weakness there on one example. A few HH of success and failures on the bubble would be a better example to judge, (Just my opinion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Im very much a poker novice in an in no poisition to be offering advice on this particular hand, especially as the buy in is about 40% of my entire bankroll. However, I reckon it would be impossible for anyone to judge how you play the bubble, and whether there is a weakness there on one example. A few HH of success and failures on the bubble would be a better example to judge, (Just my opinion). Your opinions are welcome, RB. I'm not suggesting that this one hand shows I can't play the bubble, I just happen to know it's a weakness of mine that needs to be plugged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Without question, his call was incorrect. But people make incorrect calls all the time, opponents bad play has to be factored in to your decisions, especially these difficult ones. Don't I know it!! I play in a pub league where the fold equity is close to zero. Some guys couldn't fold a blanket. I agree with all you said and should have happily folded, but the blinds were coming round quicker as players dropped out (my effective M was 3.5) Does anyone know of any online articles regarding bubble play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Your opinions are welcome, RB. I'm not suggesting that this one hand shows I can't play the bubble, I just happen to know it's a weakness of mine that needs to be plugged. For what its worth, Im shoving every time here. Im not really interested about just getting into the money. (not if Im playing for myself anyway). I have a winning mentality, so play to win and only way for me to do that is when I get a hand worth playing, mid to high pair or AK etc.... Im shoving every time with so few players. It may be a weakness I need to resolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Don't I know it!! I play in a pub league where the fold equity is close to zero. Some guys couldn't fold a blanket. I agree with all you said and should have happily folded, but the blinds were coming round quicker as players dropped out (my effective M was 3.5) Does anyone know of any online articles regarding bubble play? For what its worth, Im shoving every time here. Im not really interested about just getting into the money. (not if Im playing for myself anyway). I have a winning mentality, so play to win and only way for me to do that is when I get a hand worth playing, mid to high pair or AK etc.... Im shoving every time with so few players. It may be a weakness I need to resolve. The thing is, you can still win the tourn if you fold. Folding doesn't mean you can only cash. It means your a cert to cash plus have a chance of winning it from then on. 90% of the time you cannot win a tourn until the very late stages, I don't think about winning until I'm in the final 3/4. There are times when I've had a huge stack with 20 or so left and, with correct mega-stack play, you CAN win a tourn from that far out. Survival is key, but obviously you don't ever want to get ante'd out or ruin your chances of a good prize.. It's a fine line and timing is key. This isn't a horrible spot, but there are almost certainly going to be better spots given the dynamics. After all, what's better a $1000 win and four "no-cashes" or five $210 cashes? Ok, I've over symplified, but you get the idea. David Skylansky's Tournament Play For Advanced Poker is probably the only book I've read in recent years that I agree totally with. There is decent bubble theory included. I think it's the best book on the market - others disagree though. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Meant to add, this is just my opinion and it's based on my style. I like to make a profit on a tourn (priority), so this tactic suits me. Some prefer to risk more to get more 1st's with the risk of drawing a blank. Many would push here and give a good argument as to why I am 'wrong'. But I won't listen. :lol :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELCAKER Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Billy - how would your play be affected once the bubble was burst? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatoman Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Well... heres what i think If i had 7bb left and on the button... im shoving EVERYTIME because i can win 25% of my stack just with a shove where... if i get called, im probably looking for a coin flip (I think i can fold if theres a Shortie with less than 3bb) As Billy said before, it would have been a totally different scenario if you had 30bb because a shove there would have been a pretty bad move. However, if you had 7bb and the other shortstacks probably had like 6bb or so, i think you should go for it. I play for the win most of the time (if i have enough chips), but if im one of the shortstacks i try to get ITM first and then aim for the miracle. Nonetheless i think is a shove 100% of the time in that particular scenario. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I managed to go out on the bubble again tonight with...er (7,7). One guy had limped in with (9,9). We both made trips too. This time I was more justified as I was the short stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I managed to go out on the bubble again tonight with...er (7,7). One guy had limped in with (9,9). We both made trips too. This time I was more justified as I was the short stack. Out of interest mate, how do you generally play 77? Do you play it any different early tournament compared with say bubble time and when ITM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Out of interest mate' date=' how do you generally play 77? Do you play it any different early tournament compared with say bubble time and when ITM?[/quote'] Early on I'd put in a standard raise, or call if someone raised before me. Mid tourney I'd probably fold it unless I was first in from the cut off or better. It depends on the table though. I'd be happy to limp if I can see the flop cheaply, so if everyone's passive I'd limp hoping to flop trips. I'll be a bit twitchy next time I get them though.:unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Re: Bubble Play Billy - how would your play be affected once the bubble was burst? Just as tight until the next player as gone. When the bubble has gone players open up and gamble - they see it as freerolling as they are already in the money. By remaining tight during this spell you will hardly ever get the min prize. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Re: Bubble Play I managed to go out on the bubble again tonight with...er (7,7). One guy had limped in with (9,9). We both made trips too. This time I was more justified as I was the short stack. This is ringing a bit of a bell with me :unsure Cant remember where, But I'm sure I had 99 last night somewhere (Virgin or William Hill) against 77, that he flopped a 7 and I rivered a 9 :unsure Was it against me? :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Re: Bubble Play This is ringing a bit of a bell with me :unsure Cant remember where' date=' But I'm sure I had 99 last night somewhere (Virgin or William Hill) against 77, that he flopped a 7 and I rivered a 9 :unsure Was it against me? :loon[/quote'] It was Full Tilt, and his 9 came on the turn, the 7 came on the river..... The guy was from the UK though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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