Badly played and Lucky?

[RuleBritannia]

Hi guys, Looking for some input on this hand. As you know, Im still a beginner at this Poker malarky. I initially thought I played it quite well, given my beginner status, and it was very evident that the most of the table, although it was a freeroll were far from beginners and seemed to be fairly knowledgeable. As, I say, I thought I had played it ok, but as soon as the cards were shown, the chat box filled with comments that I had played the hand badly, could have got more if I had wanted, shouldnt have even called with the cards I had and that I had just got plain lucky. All input would be welcomed, and please be as critical as possible, as only through criticism (positive or not), can I improve, Thanks

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? We've already discussed the hand a little by PM :ok I'll let others put their thoughts first, then put the relevent parts of the PM :ok

[PGremlin]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? How could you get more chips? You got all the money from the guy already? :unsure I guess you mean the raise on the turn? I don't really get why you raise the turn and not the flop? And on the turn I would have just called the guy probably. I think your play wasn't really that bad though :ok

[happyhornet]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? You probably should have raised pre-flop but after that it was fine:clap

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

How could you get more chips? You got all the money from the guy already? :unsure I guess you mean the raise on the turn? I don't really get why you raise the turn and not the flop? And on the turn I would have just called the guy probably. I think your play wasn't really that bad though :ok

Didnt understand that one myself, but someone put that. (more chips) I raised on the turn as I had him on 8's or 10's and any time he had previously been raised for anything pot size or bigger he folded. I thought I had got all the chips I could have, as given his previous tendancies, no way I had him on 2 pairs. Previously when he had a high pair, he raised at least double the pot size on the flop. The fact he stayed in the hand but wasnt raising, in my mind, put him on 10's at best. I never raised on the flop, as I didnt want him folding due to a raise on the flop, in case he had me on Qs or even on a straight or flush draw. I was also being somewhat distracted as 4 of the players who had been eliminated where still hanging about. Pretty sure they were cdoo's fan club :lol and the chat box was constantly being filled with drivel :lol

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

You probably should have raised pre-flop but after that it was fine:clap

Yeah, GaF thinks so too :ok

[goater14]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? I would be raising on that flop, and be happy to get all the money in the middle then. By only calling his bet you give yourself a harder decision on the turn.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

I would be raising on that flop' date=' and be happy to get all the money in the middle then. By only calling his bet you give yourself a harder decision on the turn.[/quote'] and a hard decision it was..... I did think about raising/going all in on the flop but I just thought he would fold if I did. Didnt honestly reckon he had 2 pairs.

[goater14]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? On a footnote (if i done my sums correctly) if all the money went in on the flop you were a 60% fav.

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? Here's the main points of the discussion we had - think I agree with the comments so far: - "raise pre flop" - "raise the flop" - "call the turn"

In poker - situations are important - often more important than your cards! So first thing I'm thinking of is, what's the situation you have in this hand? Things I note are: - you are 3 handed - so you are in the money - you have won 2c. moving up 1 more place is worth an additional cent. moving up 2 more places is worth an additional 3 cents. In general therefore, you want to be winning from here - you dont want to limp up one more place - winning is worth 3 times as much as limping up 1 more position. - In contrast to the last point, stacks are deep - there's a lot of play left. (How deep the stack is is usually measured by "M" - M is each players stack divided by the cost of each circuit - in this case with no ante's the SB and BB). Your M is about 40. The short stack has an M of about 30 and the big stack has an M just below 100. That suggests that you can be patient, "ladder up" and then start to play heads up with the chance to outplay your opponent. As you are the mid stack - the other players will often bully you (and you have to let them get away with it) - the short stack has nothing to lose as he's currently last - the big stack can afford to take you on and lose and not be out. It's slightly unusual here because you are so deep stacked - so not quite as applicable as usual. - You have the button. 3 Handed, the button is extremely powerful - I dont know anything about the history of the players - having been observing them so far, you should have a feel for how they're playing - are they loose or tight? Are they passive or aggressive? This will all have a bearing on how you play the hand. - And your cards - QJs is a good hand 3 handed You have open limped. Sorry - I dont like that. IMO you should NEVER open limp in that situation. Before you even look at your cards, you have just 2 options - you raise or fold. If you limp, you're letting the BB in for free, and giving the SB 5-1 to call - why give them the free/cheap flop? Poker is about mistakes - the players that make fewest mistakes (whilst their opponents are making errors) are the ones who will make most money - if you limp, you're not really giving your opponents the opportunity to make a big error - if you raise, then there is far more scope for them to make a big error - they may fold when they should call/raise and they may call/raise when they should fold. Give them a chance to make an error - it's how you make your money (through the ineptitude of others - not through your own skill) - raise and give them a decision to make! Then you see a flop - you have a great hand - top pair mid kicker, a Q high flush draw and an inside straight draw. You probably have the best hand here (ok we now know you dont, but at the time you dont know that yet!). You have position and the SB comes straight out at you with a pot sized bet. This is a bet that suggests he doesnt want you drawing to the flush or the straight - and so is putting in a large bet so that if you are drawing, you are paying the wrong price if you call. You are drawing, but not just drawing. Now you have a choice to make - which will be based on your read on what range of cards your opponent may hold and what his response will be to your play if you call, or if you raise. I would usually raise here, however you can quite legitimately put in an argument to call, based on your opinions of the player from your past observations. I usually bet my draws in this situation - especially if I have top pair. I may already be ahead. If I'm not, I almost certainly have a lot of outs (9 cards for the flush, 3 extra for the straight, 2 Queens for trips and 3 Jacks for 2 pair). That's up to 19 outs - discount it a bit for those that may be no good some of the time - you can probably count about 14 outs to win the hand, even if you're not already winning - that makes you a favourite! So you may already be ahead, even if you are behind, you are favourite to hit an out, or you may even persuade him to fold! Reraising here gives you so much opportunity to make a profit! (If you hit a big hand, you want to get paid off with his stack - you wont usually be able to get stacks in by the river if you dont raise here - so you're building the pot size too) The turn comes a blank - now it's a lot tougher for you - you've lost half of your chance to hit a big hand - you have the same number of outs, but only 1 card to come instead of two. Now your hand is nowhere near as strong as it was on the flop. Your opponent showed weakness by just limping pre flop, but on the flop and the turn he has shown huge strength with pot sized bets. Now your top pair, mid kicker doesnt seem anywhere near as good - but you do still have a lot of chances (about 30%) to hit one of your outs on the river. Whilst on the flop, I'd have happily put my entire stack in, now I'm not quite so keen to do so - I would just call his 360 bet and see if I hit a monster on the river. However given your reraise and his all in, you then have to call. My view, I'm afraid - I think you could have played it quite a bit better pre flop and on the turn (dont be despondant about that - all part of the learning process )

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? Re GaF (and others) When 3 handed, never open limp and let the BB see the pot for free (or even let the SB for half of what Ive put in). Would this apply in general or just when "in the money" ? "cdoo" was only getting involved when he had something, never tended to try and bluff. I had already been burnt 3 times by him when he hit QQ, AKs and KAo in successive hands. I didnt think he could possibly be strong 3 hands in a row. When his hand was weak, he folded every time, and I had him down as 8's or 10's, so figured if I go all in/raise on the flop then hes going to run a mile, as he had already down to the other player left at the table on 3 occasions. Do I get myself hung up thinking what they could possibly have or do I focus on my own hand? I have a feeling, I was thinking too much about what he could be sitting on in this hand here.

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? If you're on the button, and no-one has entered the pot before you, then I dont think I would ever open limp - it's always a raise or fold for me! That information on cdoo is new - you didnt give me that in the initial PM ;) It may well impact the way you play the hand, however disagree "I didnt think he could possibly be strong 3 hands in a row." - cards have no memory, the odds on the current deal are unchanged by what has already happened on previous deals. If he's on 8s or Ts, then he has 6 outs to 2 pair - your 1 pair isnt invulnerable to his 1 pair - if you're prepared to put your stack in (which you obviously were), then you cannot afford to give him free cards - you should be raising him and making him pay to draw. If he's a solid player, then I'm not sure that a pot sized bet (and definitely 2 pot sized bets) are the way he'd play 2nd pair or third pair - by the turn I think you should be able to discount 8s or Ts as an option for him. In general - knowing what your opponent could have is probably more important that knowing what you have - however at this level, it is probably more important to focus on your own cards and to play "ABC poker". For example - if you're pretty certain your opponent has a missed Ace high draw on the river, it would usually be a good opportunity to bet - whatever you have - however at this level, if they will call you with Ace high, then you dont want to do it unless you have a hand. If your opponent was always folding when he had nothing - I presume you were bullying him and constantly raising him? You should have been - 2 times out of 3 he'll flop nothing and you can take it down.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

If you're on the button, and no-one has entered the pot before you, then I dont think I would ever open limp - it's always a raise or fold for me! That information on cdoo is new - you didnt give me that in the initial PM ;) It may well impact the way you play the hand, however disagree "I didnt think he could possibly be strong 3 hands in a row." - cards have no memory, the odds on the current deal are unchanged by what has already happened on previous deals. If he's on 8s or Ts, then he has 6 outs to 2 pair - your 1 pair isnt invulnerable to his 1 pair - if you're prepared to put your stack in (which you obviously were), then you cannot afford to give him free cards - you should be raising him and making him pay to draw. If he's a solid player, then I'm not sure that a pot sized bet (and definitely 2 pot sized bets) are the way he'd play 2nd pair or third pair - by the turn I think you should be able to discount 8s or Ts as an option for him. In general - knowing what your opponent could have is probably more important that knowing what you have - however at this level, it is probably more important to focus on your own cards and to play "ABC poker". For example - if you're pretty certain your opponent has a missed Ace high draw on the river, it would usually be a good opportunity to bet - whatever you have - however at this level, if they will call you with Ace high, then you dont want to do it unless you have a hand. If your opponent was always folding when he had nothing - I presume you were bullying him and constantly raising him? You should have been - 2 times out of 3 he'll flop nothing and you can take it down.

I didnt think to mention how he had been playing til you responded by asking "was he playing loose/tight, aggressive"? Only then did I realise that to judge a scenario or play you need to be in possesion of all the facts. Looking at it now, and looking at what you guys are saying, you are right, I should have been able to discount the 8s or 10s, simply due to previous patterns of betting more than anything else. Even if I do put him on 2 pairs, or even a possible flush/straight, do you think I should have been confident enough to stick my stack in on the flop? No chance he was on trips, as he would have raised pre flop. So that wasnt a option. I wasnt bullying him but Bobhope, the chip leader at the time was. He was playing ultra aggressively right from the start when he took 2 players out going all in. Stealing blinds left right and centre. (proved to be his undoing in the end). Learned my lesson though with pre-flop on the button. Its either raise or fold. :ok

[PGremlin]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

Re GaF (and others) Do I get myself hung up thinking what they could possibly have or do I focus on my own hand? I have a feeling, I was thinking too much about what he could be sitting on in this hand here.

There is a standard play in situations, and there is table dynamics that can totally change it :lol I think you did well by observing and analyzing your opponents and adopt your play. Keep doing that :ok Pre-flop is so dependant on table dynamics. But maybe QJ is so good 3 handed that you should always want a bet/raise there regardless of your opponents? ... dunno. Depends on your range of hands pre-flop :$ Your tactic was luring with top pair, decent kicker with a lot of draws from the flop and were prepared to go all in all the time. Most wouldn't try to slowplay with that though, and that is the difference between just calling on the flop and raising. I think you are on the right track of improving yourself, keep analysing those oponents, on every level you need that experience :ok

[JulioArca]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

On a footnote (if i done my sums correctly) if all the money went in on the flop you were a 60% fav.

The money went in on the turn which was the only time in the hand he wasn't favourite! I would have raised preflop which probably would have negated post flop decisions. Having made the first mistake I dont think you should compound it by calling the flop, I would have reraised, top pair, flush draw and a straight flush draw.

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

Even if I do put him on 2 pairs, or even a possible flush/straight, do you think I should have been confident enough to stick my stack in on the flop? No chance he was on trips, as he would have raised pre flop. So that wasnt a option.

If you put him on 2 pair, with a fair degree of confidence,then you are behind and dont want to put your stack in - especially at this level where an opponent is NEVER folding 2 pair. If you are behind, but drawing strong, then your objective is to draw as cheaply as possible

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? Thanks Guys for all your imput thus far. Another interesting one for me.... I just played this one. I had a weaker hand than the one above, and with the 2 running clubs, I wanted to at least see the flop, so called for 90 chips which was minimal, flop comes and Ive got a flush. I just go pot size bet, as Im confident that Ive got the other guy beat but want him to stay in the hand. He calls on the flop, and I go all in on the turn as Im confident now that he is not going to fold and that he is going to call. What faults are there here? (SORRY FOR BEING A PAIN IN THE ARSE HERE GUYS!!!)

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? Position is key in poker - here you are in the small blind - so from post flop onwards, you are always out of position and you are always first to act. I'm not keen to call with a speculative hand from out of position, so I dont like your pre flop call. I simply dont want to play a raised pot from out of position. So it's not just your cardss that are worse - your position is worse as well. With that flop though, you hit the jackpot - you cannot afford to slow play as another club on the turn or the river leave you extremely vulnerable to a lone higher club!! If someone has a lone higher club, you need to make them pay to draw. I'm happy with your all in on the turn for same reasons as above (and at this level knowing that players will call light!) - no idea what your opponent is playing at :loon but you love seeing him turn his cards over there :) So I would question your pre flop call, but after that, looks perfect to me :ok

[PGremlin]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

I'm not keen to call with a speculative hand from out of position' date=' so I dont like your pre flop call. I simply dont want to play a raised pot from out of position. So it's not just your cardss that are worse - your position is worse as well.[/quote'] I don't agree on that :$ He has enough chips to take a stab with good connected suitors to call a min bet. He doesn't always have to play pairs or picture picture cards :\

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

I don't agree on that :$

Fair enough :ok

He has enough chips to take a stab with good connected suitors to call a min bet. He doesn't always have to play pairs or picture picture cards :\

Even from the small blind? Key for me in not wanting to play here are: - out of position - relatively low implied odds - BB still to act - given the level, and the buy in - I dont need to get hidden monsters - high cards therefore go up in value, and drawing hands (like suited connectors) down.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

Fair enough :ok Even from the small blind? Key for me in not wanting to play here are: - out of position - relatively low implied odds - BB still to act - given the level, and the buy in - I dont need to get hidden monsters - high cards therefore go up in value, and drawing hands (like suited connectors) down.

I understand what you're saying mate (I THINK). I had more than enough chips to pass up on this hand and didnt have to make a speculative call and had BB decided to raise then it would have definitely been 90 chips wasted as I was folding there on in. Had the flop not been so attractive to me, I was folding but at the time felt it was worth a mere 5% of my stack to find out (or at least try) what the flop would bring up. In hindsight, I can see it was an impulsive and potentially bad call to make, and could have easily gone wrong. :ok Thanks again :ok

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

In hindsight, I can see it was an impulsive and potentially bad call to make, and could have easily gone wrong. :ok

Not a given - just my opinion. (and I certainly respect Gremlins view :ok) The odds of flopping a flush, if you have 2 suited cards are I think 0.8% - so that's about 1 time in 120. So it's pretty unlikely (you'll hear people yelling and screaming at the bad beat when their 50.1% shot gets overturned - and 1 in 120 is a heck of a lot rarer!!) Of course you have other good flops - straights, 2 pairs, draws ..... I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that that flop is exceptional - and guess what? It's not even a done deal to win - against 2 random hands there's still a 16% chance you will lose the hand (yes you're happy to stick your stack in with those odds, but the chances you still lose the hand, mean that you need to win even more when you do win it...) - my view is that you might get away with it where the implied odds (the amount you can win when you hit your hand - i.e. stack sizes as a multiple of what you're putting in) are higher, but I dont think in this case they are anywhere near high enough...

[PGremlin]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

Had the flop not been so attractive to me, I was folding but at the time felt it was worth a mere 5% of my stack to find out (or at least try) what the flop would bring up. In hindsight, I can see it was an impulsive and potentially bad call to make, and could have easily gone wrong. :ok

I agree you don't need to play hands like that, but I don't mind playing hands like that every now to just mix things up and be less predictable. GaF, what were his chances on getting a flush, straight, trips or 2 pair with 98 suited? I have caught myself making that play OOP before on occasion. Mixed feelings about it. For me it depends on the situation and table dynamics and sometimes it just... feels right to try it. I have to admit it's almost always in position when I try plays with that hand and rarely OOP, but sometimes... Maybe it's a small leak in my game... any other PL'ers that would make the play OOP?

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? i would probably(well almost certainly) have called the min raise pre flop. a lot of people will min raise a monster from early position to either extract a bit of value or hope for someone to come back over the top and i'm quite happy to call for a small proportion of my stack even from the sb in the hope of doubling up on a very good flop. the caller on the button is making the call look an even better proposition as its adding a bit more value to the hand as well. the trick is to not get too attached if you only hit a bit of the hand(say top pair with no draws) then id c-bet and fold to some action or see if the turn improves you if you get a caller,if not then i would probably slow up and check the turn.what you dont want to do is keep pushing chips in from early with a low top pair/ crap kicker. as for the way you played it post flop it looks pretty much perfect:ok you want to keep building the pot so that its attractive enough for a big club to keep calling on the flop and turn so you get max value out of the hand. with the pot size bet on the flop it leaves you with a pot sized bet for the turn(which is perfect:)),its sometimes worth adjusting your bet sizes so that you can try to get your money in before the river on these sort of hands but still get a caller. so if you had a few less chips(say 1200) you could have bet a bit less on the flop(maybe 300-350)and then put in 700 on the turn. with a few more chips you could have bet slightly larger on the flop(not too big tho dont wanna scare em off;))and then it leaves you a bigger pot bet on the turn:ok so it's worthwhile thinking what your gonna do a street or two ahead in any situation.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? Sorry Guys, have another one. Dont quite know what I did wrong here? I had Pocket A's and straight away I raised but not too much that I would lose all interest from everyone. I get 2 calls, and they check after seeing the flop. I am wary of the two J's and worried that even though the other 2 had checked, I half thought one was sitting on a possible set. I cant throw away the A's though and feel I have enough chips to make another raise and go 1/2 pot raise. 1 of them folds, and the other calls. He then checks again after seeing the turn. Im now convinced he doesnt have J as I thought he would have raised at this point, so I go in with a pot bet, which is almost enough to clean out his chips if he calls, and he does. He checks again after the river and for some reason my mindset has changed again and Ive put himback on 3J's and convinced Im beat. So I just check rather than in my mind let him double up completely. Should I have gotten out at the flop? Should I have been more aggressive at the flop? (would going all in have prevented him from looking at the turn card??) What have I done wrong here?

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

Dont quite know what I did wrong here?

Havent read the hand yet, but why do you think you did something wrong? In poker, there is random variance (that everyone faces) - this means that you can play perfectly and lose (or you can play poorly and win). One of the biggest mistakes that beginners make (IMO) is that they are "results orientated". What the result is of one specific hand is of no significance whatsoever - it's the turn of a card - it's random chance. The skill is in getting small edges frequently, which over a large enough number of hands will give you a profit. The goal in poker is not to make money/chips (bizarely enough - though that's the result) - the goal is to make the right choices. Make your decisions, then dont worry about the results of the hand - just decide if you made the right choice!

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? Ok - now looked at the hand - at no stage did you put any chips in when you weren't ahead - you should be happy and satisfied :)

[Blatch]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

Ok - now looked at the hand - at no stage did you put any chips in when you weren't ahead - you should be happy and satisfied :)

Sadly in todays game that is no where near good enough any more. The real focus now is getting the money in and as much of it as possible while your good.

[GaF]

Re: Badly played and Lucky?

Sadly in todays game that is no where near good enough any more. The real focus now is getting the money in and as much of it as possible while your good.

Remember these are 10c SnG freerolls and that RB is new to the game.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Badly played and Lucky? RB - I doubt you'll find anyone on here who will say that you didn't play that last hand well. You got chips in when ahead, I also liked your check on the end recognising that you could be behind at this point. These hands happen all the time. Keep playing them like that and you'll win a lot more than you lose.