Keeping notes on players

[GaF]

I'm absolutely terrible at keeping notes on players :$ I know its use, but probably am just not observant enough to pick up on things worth recording. Anyway - I probably have one note on one player from one observed hand in totality, and I was just sitting with this player (a regular), when this hand came up: BossMedia Game #1451935627: Table Table TH 967 - €0.05/€0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:36:37 - 2009/02/10 Seat 1: Shawkgabo (€4.23) Seat 2: kung_oba (€10.42) Seat 3: PLTelepee (€9.70) Seat 5: tomas181 (€6.21) Seat 4: grzala_PL (€10.18) tomas181 posts the big blind of €0.10 grzala_PL posts the small blind of €0.05 PLTelepee is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to PLTelepee [:6d: :6h:] Shawkgabo folds kung_oba calls €0.10 PLTelepee raises €0.45 grzala_PL folds tomas181 goes all-in with €6.21 kung_oba folds PLTelepee ???? At this stage I have no decision to make - I'm moving the cursor to the fold button, when it gets lost and instead I click on his note which shows this:

Shoved all in (100xBB) with AK Preflop

Now I'm in a quandry - I've seen him shove like this once, with AK. If I know he has AK, then it's an easy call - if he can do it with other hands as well, such as mid pocket pairs, then it's an easy fold. I persuade myself that I should fold, so procede to click call :$ Relieved to see him turn over AK and my 66 holds up :) PLTelepee calls €6.21 *** FLOP *** [:Td: :4s: :3h:] *** TURN *** [Td 4s 3h] [:Th:] *** RIVER *** [Td 4s 3h Th] [:3d:] *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €11.95 | Rake €0.62 Board: [Td 4s 3h Th 3d] Shawkgabo won (€0.00), mucks kung_oba won (€0.00), mucks PLTelepee won (€11.95), showed [6d 6h] grzala_PL won (€0.00), mucks tomas181 won (€0.00), showed [:Ah: :Kd:] Without my note, I wouldnt even have considered the call for a nanosecond. So the real purpose of this thread - I hope everyone keeps good notes on what they see :ok (and if not - never a better time to start :ok)

[billy the punter]

Re: Keeping notes on players The notes worked but I cannot believe you happily called for a 50/50. Why not save the bother and go and have the money on red or black? ;) On the subject, I do constantly keep notes, it does help and it keeps you focused. I worked better on Ladbrokes than on Betfair as Ladbrokes had a more static set of players - the usual faces every night.

[GaF]

Re: Keeping notes on players

The notes worked but I cannot believe you happily called for a 50/50.

I think that's a mistake a lot of players make, but it's not 50/50 - far closer to 55/45 in my favour - this is a cash game - I take an edge like that every time without hesitation. If I had the AK and through some information was convinced he had 66 I'd instafold. AK v mid pocket pair is often described as a "coin flip" - but it isnt a true coin flip - it's a dodgy, weighted coin ;)

[muttley]

Re: Keeping notes on players Glad your sixes held up, but surely your only information on this guy was that he would go all-in with a minimum of A,K? If he would also make this play with hands like 10,10 9,9 etc then you could be in trouble. It's weak play on his part and suggests he doesn't know how to play A, K post-flop when he misses. I'd have folded and added "Donk" to his notes. Then I'd try and find what table he was sitting at each time I logged on.

[GaF]

Re: Keeping notes on players If I thought he could do it with the likes of 99 and TT as well then it was a mistake to call. I think I kind of persuaded myself that he's only doing this with AK - because he's a regular (VPIP 24%, PFT 5%, AF 1.09) and a pretty passive one at that, I didn't see him shoving all in pre flop like that with too wide a range of hands - I guessed that with pocket pairs he'd be more likely to set mine them... I think he multitables a significant number of hours a day - so not difficult to find ;)

[Nade]

Re: Keeping notes on players When i'm fully focused i make notes, but when i'm in auto pilot mode i just glaze over. I always make a note when i see someone spew off a load of money like : calls 3bet to 13 in CO with A7o, stacks off on 7 high rainbow, c/r AI. . Also when someone makes a tricky play like: flats a 3bet in MP with KK, plus a note on how they played it post flop. Muttley - going all in pre flop with AK is one of the most standard things in short handed cash games i think, everyone does it, it definitely doesn't make them a donk, people do it right to the highest levels.

[GaF]

Re: Keeping notes on players

Muttley - going all in pre flop with AK is one of the most standard things in short handed cash games i think' date=' everyone does it, it definitely doesn't make them a donk, people do it right to the highest levels.[/quote'] Not with a bet over €6 into a 60c pot :tongue2

[Nade]

Re: Keeping notes on players

Not with a bet over €6 into a 60c pot :tongue2

Everyday i see people going all in with AK for $100 into $18 pots (bblind $1, raise to $3.50, 3bet to $13.50, 4bet shove of $100.) That's a lot more common then people 4bet shoving with AA,KK or QQ as they want the fold equity vs the PPs which they're a slight dog to. FWIW I 4bet shove often with the 4 big pairs to balance the times i 4bet shove with AK, tonight i 4bet shoved with KK and was called by JJ because the 4bet looks like AK.

[muttley]

Re: Keeping notes on players

Muttley - going all in pre flop with AK is one of the most standard things in short handed cash games i think' date=' everyone does it, it definitely doesn't make them a donk, people do it right to the highest levels.[/quote'] I didn't know that and I apologise for my ignorance. The point I was trying to make was that weak players lack the confidence to play hands preflop, and so are keen to get all their chips to the centre with hands like A,K. It absolves them of post flop decision making and getting called and losing a race can be chalked up as a bad beat. I would like to play against a player like this, (not necessarily when he is holding A,K!) My personal (and limited) experience of live games is that rookies HATE A,K (Anna Kournikova....looks good, wins nothing) because they have no idea how to play it. They enter the pot with a limp or a mini-raise and then if they miss the flop they're done with the hand. I'm guessing that this guy isn't making an elaborate play. He's just looking at his hole cards and saying "I'm probably best. All in". It wouldn't surprise me if he made the same move after a raise from a tight player in early position.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Keeping notes on players Certainly agree that notes are worth taking, they will help make decisions in the long run. I think GAF's call was entirely legitimate especially at that level, unlikely that someone will be playing so tricky, so very likely it is ak or a small pp, certainly anything below 7's. I think NADE makes a valid point which just shows how the landscape that we all play on is forever changing. "FWIW I 4bet shove often with the 4 big pairs to balance the times i 4bet shove with AK, tonight i 4bet shoved with KK and was called by JJ because the 4bet looks like AK." Last night on a 0.50c-$1 table on Betfair I saw a pre flop raise to $3.50 from mid position, a re-raise by bb to $10, which was just called. The flop came rainbow and all low at which point the BB went all in for his remaining $65. After using up his timebank the oppo called eventually with JJ to find himself up against AA. I would never have considered playing this way especially on such a benign looking flop.....but it worked and maybe it is something we should be incorporating into our games.