morlspin Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Im sorry Billy but flat calling the raise OOP with AK against another big stack' date=' for almost a 1/3 to 1/4 of his stack can NEVER be the right play.[/quote'] it was for 6500....i still had 63k left.....under 1/10th of my stack to call:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Perhaps I do play a little too tight in certain situations in tournaments. It's important that, no matter how successful we think we are, we should always look at our game objectively. This is why I go on forums after all. Perhaps I'd win more tourns if I didn't (play a little too tight in certain situations), but perhaps I'd cash less - who is to say that the former is more financially benefical over the year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall it was for 6500....i still had 63k left.....under 1/10th of my stack to call:ok Exactly, if it were 1/3 of your stack then the call is horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Exactly' date=' if it were 1/3 of your stack [i']then the call is horrible. thats why im not defending my call preflop:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall By the by, but I actually think he may've had a pocket pair (less than Queens) in hand. Based on what he did before and after, do you think he would've called with JJ, TT, 99? Also if he did have AQ and the flop come A23 with you doubling up, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be seen as some great slow-playing. ;) :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I wasnt going to post it up Billy, it was geordiegaz who said it would make for a good discussion! I think he would have called with Anything in the range of AA-1010 and AK-AJ and yeah, if i double up im laughing and we aint sat here discussing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I wasnt going to post it up Billy, it was geordiegaz who said it would make for a good discussion! 66 replies and over 600 views - best strategy thread for months imo? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Your a good flop player- how an earth can u play this hand post flop when the pot size after the flop will be close to the stack sizes of each player??? If a standard raise was made and the villian decides to re raise you can probably flat and play a flop but the way the betting has gone all post flop play has been taken out of the game. Clear shove fold IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Your a good flop player- how an earth can u play this hand post flop when the pot size after the flop will be close to the stack sizes of each player??? If a standard raise was made and the villian decides to re raise you can probably flat and play a flop but the way the betting has gone all post flop play has been taken out of the game. Clear shove fold IMHO There is under 30k in the middle, with about 120k still to play for I thought? Maybe I've mistaken the stacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall 29k in middle 63k = me 70k = him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall In total you've put in 13000 out of 62000 which is 1/5 of your stack. This leaves you with 49k behind with around 28k in the middle so obv I was wrong saying stack size= pot size. My bad However u have very little room for manovere post flop. FWIW the main reason for a shove here not because I think AK=nutz but due to his range being wider due to the fact he didn't see the initial raise. Flatting is bad because of exactly what happens- the guy could easily have had A rag and bet u off the pot when u check. You flat and shove any flop also but more risky as he may connect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall 29k in middle 63k = me 70k = him So u started the hand with 76k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall So u started the hand with 76k? oops no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I like playing post flop but sometimes atck sizes and betting dictate= pre flop pressure and I think this is the case. I would shove 76 diamonds here cos Im so sure he's folding Obv if u ever see me at the table my ranges is ACES only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall it was for 6500....i still had 63k left.....under 1/10th of my stack to call:ok Hmmmmm maybe my maths aint great but if you started the hand with 62k and you raised to 6800 you dont have 63k left. He then raises to 13k from memory. A flat call means just under 1/4 of your stack is in there pre flop. God I hope I have the figures right from memory :hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Exactly' date=' if it were 1/3 of your stack [i']then the call is horrible. Those figures arent correct. He started the hand with 62k so take out the ante and his 6800 raise your down to 55k, the re raise is another 6200 so were down to 48k ish if we flat call. We are then faced with AK OOP, with 1/4 of our stack in the middle, a pot of nearly 29k which is well over half of our remaining stack. Madness :@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall 66 replies and over 600 views - best strategy thread for months imo? :unsure Yes but it would have helped if G knew the stack sizes, bet sizes and pot sizes and how the action went ;) It doesn't help when a railer knows more about the hand than the person involved. All that this thread demonstrates is what I have discussed with G many a time, he plays on feel (and he admits that) what he needs to do is get a grasp of the maths/strategy of poker and then combining the two the results will improve. In the very same tourney I felt a few of you were agast with my A4 move, there was solid reasoning behind it but all I got was 'donk move from a loose player trebles up' Later on when I was chip leader a few railers including Tikay were giving me funny looks on hands where i lost a lot of chips with K9 and K7 but there was sound maths and game theory behind both and the fact that is lost me a lot of chips didn't matter to me, I was happy the way I played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino1980 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall What does a 6400 raise UTG do that a 4800-5000 raise doesnt achieve? Bingo, spot on Blatch, once antes kick in i usually make it 2.5x+ante although if the avg stack is 20bbs or less i just start shaving even more to 2.2x or less, so what if the big blind calls due to the 'amazing' pot odds, you want him to call. But to answer your question, off the top of my head: - give you less wiggle room down the streets - creates a bigger pot to stack ratio - narrow the range of hands opponents will call you with meaning your hand plays worse against their range - make your future bets a bigger % of your remaining stack :D FWIW I'm shoving this with one hand in the air or even 4-betting small to give the impression of false fold equity and induce a shove from villain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacey Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Insta-shove atc ftw. He hasn't seen you raise and will pass pretty much all holdings. Your fear factor at the table will notch up to the high 90's allowing you to steamroll the table and give you a great shot for a podium finish. Man up and shove in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall In the very same tourney I felt a few of you were agast with my A4 move, there was solid reasoning behind it but all I got was 'donk move from a loose player trebles up' Later on when I was chip leader a few railers including Tikay were giving me funny looks on hands where i lost a lot of chips with K9 and K7 but there was sound maths and game theory behind both and the fact that is lost me a lot of chips didn't matter to me, I was happy the way I played. Why don't you post up the A4 hand? will make for a good discussion aswell. Personally I could see your thinking..... you just ran into a big hand after you acted which was unlucky.... didn't see the other hands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Why don't you post up the A4 hand? will make for a good discussion aswell. Personally I could see your thinking..... you just ran into a big hand after you acted which was unlucky.... didn't see the other hands! futile ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELCAKER Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I'm of the opinion that he could easily have had AQ, especially if he didnt realise you'd raised from EP. If it is a genuine mistake then ..... he gets AQ on the button and raises, he finds out he now has to double his bet as someone from EP has already raised. He looks over and sees the other big stack....GULP. AQ not a great hand. (Obviously at this point any re-re-raise gets though, so all those suggesting a shove would be proved correct) But our villain then sees Morlspin just smooth call. So he's now facing a horrible situation where he has no idea where he is with his AQ - Morl could easily have a monster here AA/KK/QQ, although the latter slightly more unlikely considering he has Q in his hand. If I was sitting on 70k with AQ against 63k I'm not enjoying this spot. He then gets very very lucky and hits his 3 outer. Morl checks. Now he's thinking he could definitely have a monster and he's trapping. So villain checks. Turn comes a blank. Morl checks again. Now he knows there's a chance his q is good. So how much to bet to find out. It didnt have to be 20k to find out, 15k would have got the job done and not appeared to weak. The fact is that whichever side of the fence you sit, ie you shove, or you play carefully like Billy might have, neither is going to be correct 100% of the time. Morl was unlucky the villian hit his Q, but....he still had a very playable stack even after the loss of the hand and as Billy advocates you cant win if you are sitting on the rail. A great hand for discussion tho'...... How did you get on in the end Morl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall finished 31st of 207 mate made day two which had around 49 runners remaining and went out around 2hrs after play started on day 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall First of all, this has been a great read, although I think some posts here are quite far from being profitable. So heres my take on the hand, which is pretty much a culmination of alot of the posts i suppose. So: Preflop - the raise is definately way too big, no doubt about that. If you are a good player you want to be fining the optimal raise size to maximise fold equity whilst investing as little as possible preflop, giving you room to outplay your opponents. This is usually somewhere between about 2.2 and 3x the bb; i personally aim for between 2.4 and 2.6xbb. But I will discuss the action as the hand actually played out....... So after the reraise - there are merits to both folding and shoving, but i think that calling is probably the worst option out of position. When deciding whether to shove or not, you must know your opponent. Bear in mind his physical actions, and if they appear significant, take them into account (ie if you feel he is uncomfortable, this adds weight to the argument for shoving). Then decide whether he can lay hands down. After all, your stack sizes mean that a decent/good or tight player would only be calling with AA or KK. If he is a decent player, then shoving is also a good play. His raise wasn't a re-raise, he didnt see your raise so his range is still fairly wide (unless your information tells you otherwise). I think that, for me, this would culminate in a gut feeling which you should trust. If you feel that he isn't strong enough to call, then shove. If you aren't sure, then fold and preserve a good stack. In terms of the "its only AK" debate, i think that this is based on stack size. I think what billy is saying is, the fold is ok because this is a potentially risky spot. Just because you have AK, doesn't mean you have to risk your whole stack on it. There are much less riskier spots - such as picking up blinds and antes, which you can use to accumulate chips. So i would choose my action based upon my read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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