BAM Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Me too mate. I just don't get it. It certainly isn't me and it never will be. Although it does come down to the old arguemnt...if it was my girlfriend playing, she SHOULD want the race, her skills are limited and she should be pushing edges. It's her best chance of gathering chips. Any decent tourn player should be avoiding races against similar stacks, when in decent shape. Its the situation morls has got himself into (but it would be interesting to see if he did play like a girl ;)) I'm torn between shove or fold as I cannot see what good a call would do now the pot is so big and he is oop. You have to gamble a couple of times in a tourney if you want to win. It is also the expectations and targets you set yourself if you play too passive you end up shoving with worse hands on the bubble. I would prefer to gather chips so I dont have them problems later in a tourney and if I bust, so what! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Its the situation morls has got himself into (but it would be interesting to see if he did play like a girl ;)) I'm torn between shove or fold as I cannot see what good a call would do now the pot is so big and he is oop. You have to gamble a couple of times in a tourney if you want to win. It is also the expectations and targets you set yourself if you play too passive you end up shoving with worse hands on the bubble. I would prefer to gather chips so I dont have them problems later in a tourney and if I bust, so what! WASP's a far more experienced, and better, player than I am, but I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon, honest :) - but that is exactly my thoughts too. You're not going to serenely progress through a tourney picking up chips at will, there's going to be tough decisions along the way - I'd rather give myself a real chance of winning by accumulating the chips during the middle stages, than limp into the final 15% and have to be pushing with weaker hands in order just to make the last 10% (normally the % that get paid?). I'd rather go out 80th of 200 and get nothing, but having given myself a chance of doing some damage, than come 25th of 200 and still get nothing, because I hadn't given myself a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall The guy is effectivley opening in late position cos he hasn't seen Morl opening therefore his range is huge- if he has aces or kings its a cooler. Most time your earning a fold and if not your either racing or got him dominated (when he shows AQ and maybe AJ) The fact your up against a big stack makes this even more +EV- do u not think he'll be worried about what Morl has? All those nits saying "it's just AK" don't really understand the dynamic of tournament poker. What u gonna wait for to shove in this spot? Aces? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall The guy is effectivley opening in late position cos he hasn't seen Morl opening therefore his range is huge- if he has aces or kings its a cooler. Most time your earning a fold and if not your either racing or got him dominated (when he shows AQ and maybe AJ) The fact your up against a big stack makes this even more +EV- do u not think he'll be worried about what Morl has? All those nits saying "it's just AK" don't really understand the dynamic of tournament poker. What u gonna wait for to shove in this spot? Aces? Don't we? :lol Perhaps those that are saying really understand tournament dynamics. By the way, one of those who "don't understand the dynamic of tournament poker" has never been out the top 3 in the Ladbrokes monthly leaderboard and just finished 7th in his first attempt at the betfair leaderboard. So that really is a ridiculous statement George. Also why is everyone assuming this guy will fold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Its the situation morls has got himself into (but it would be interesting to see if he did play like a girl ;)) I'm torn between shove or fold as I cannot see what good a call would do now the pot is so big and he is oop. You have to gamble a couple of times in a tourney if you want to win. It is also the expectations and targets you set yourself if you play too passive you end up shoving with worse hands on the bubble. I would prefer to gather chips so I dont have them problems later in a tourney and if I bust, so what! Yes but not necessarily when you are twice the average stack. :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall WASP's a far more experienced, and better, player than I am, but I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon, honest :) - but that is exactly my thoughts too. You're not going to serenely progress through a tourney picking up chips at will, there's going to be tough decisions along the way - I'd rather give myself a real chance of winning by accumulating the chips during the middle stages, than limp into the final 15% and have to be pushing with weaker hands in order just to make the last 10% (normally the % that get paid?). I'd rather go out 80th of 200 and get nothing, but having given myself a chance of doing some damage, than come 25th of 200 and still get nothing, because I hadn't given myself a chance. I have never been a believer in the "blaze of glory" theory, those suggesting that it's better to take the risk of busting out last - as long as they give themeselves a chance to "win it". What chance have you got exactly when you're out in 80th? I really think it's loser talk and an excuse for players to gamble, as to be fair that's what most crave. I've always believed these decisions should relate to your skills/style but for me it's not the way I play tourns. Of course I reraise with AK a lot, but it's not always the done thing as some think. Having played tourn poker for a living, and still rely on it for a portion of earnings, I believe the most important thing is long term profits. Therefore survival is key, and making the money is paramount. Sorry if this has hijacked the thread a bit - as although it relates to the discussion the thread really is about an actual hand. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I suppose the real answer to this problem is "you had to be there". Morls is the only one who would have had a feel for how confident his raise was, how he reacted to being told their was a raise in front of him etc. etc. If he acted weak take one course of action, if he acted strong take another. Come on Morls put us out of our misery - I reckon you called because of all the confusion over the raise knocked you off balance? Its not easy to think clearly in this situation because you generally have 8 players telling the dealer what to do while hero and villain look bemused trying not to give any tells.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I cant believe some of the replies on here. If Morls shoves here the guy seriously has to have KK or AA to call and seeing as he think he is raising from the button first into the pot whats are the chances he actually has one or these two? Morls has raised UTG and therefore the other guy must know he has strong and will thng about everything that others have mentioned for Morls folding here. This is an insta shove and for those saying its only AK? What are they looking for to shove on a big stack here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I cant believe some of the replies on here. If Morls shoves here the guy seriously has to have KK or AA to call and seeing as he think he is raising from the button first into the pot whats are the chances he actually has one or these two? Morls has raised UTG and therefore the other guy must know he has strong and will thng about everything that others have mentioned for Morls folding here. This is an insta shove and for those saying its only AK? What are they looking for to shove on a big stack here? There are some terrible players around, even in big tourns. To say he will pass anything but AA or KK is very niave. You and I would need AA or KK to call, but we're not in the hand. I've seen similar calls with TT in the same sort of sitautions in 1k F/O's - sure you have too? Morls said the guy was fairly tight. Do we know this is a steal? I mean has he stole on the button previously? I'm not saying it's wrong to shove in this instance, I'm merely stating that AK should not come wit ha re-shove requisite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I have never been a believer in the "blaze of glory" theory, those suggesting that it's better to take the risk of busting out last - as long as they give themeselves a chance to "win it". What chance have you got exactly when you're out in 80th? I really think it's loser talk and an excuse for players to gamble, as to be fair that's what most crave. I've always believed these decisions should relate to your skills/style but for me it's not the way I play tourns. Of course I reraise with AK a lot, but it's not always the done thing as some think. Having played tourn poker for a living, and still rely on it for a portion of earnings, I believe the most important thing is long term profits. Therefore survival is key, and making the money is paramount. Sorry if this has hijacked the thread a bit - as although it relates to the discussion the thread really is about an actual hand. :ok I'm not saying I am prepared to go out recklessly in a blaze of glory. I'm saying the middle to pre-bubble stages are the time when aggression, in position, is going to force those who, like you mention, think making the money is paramount, off their hand. I'd have spent the early levels studying the others at the table, and working out who I could force off hands in the right situation... make maximum profit from when I have a monster... ...to accumulate my chips. One of the important skills of poker? Rather than the talk of a loser - I'd like to think in general (not always) if all my chips go in it is because I have read the situation correctly and I am ahead, giving myself the best chance of maximising my profit on the hand. By the way, not taking issue with what you have said at all, just trying to get my pov across a bit clearer - in that I'm not saying gamble for the sake of gambling, but gamble that your read of your opponent is right As for this particular hand, I read it as a player on the button playing his position, not realising the raise prior - I'd be putting HIM to the test for his tourney life - not for puerile kicks from a gamble, but because I think I am ahead. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Yes but not necessarily when you are twice the average stack. :loon Why not? twice the average stack can soon become average stack again unless you continue to build Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Don't we? :lol Perhaps those that are saying really understand tournament dynamics. By the way, one of those who "don't understand the dynamic of tournament poker" has never been out the top 3 in the Ladbrokes monthly leaderboard and just finished 7th in his first attempt at the betfair leaderboard. So that really is a ridiculous statement George. Also why is everyone assuming this guy will fold? Billy, the "mis click" raise makes this shove so much easier than it is. FWIW if the opening raise was in the range it should be (2.5-3*) then we may well flat here or three bet but due to the astronomical pre flop raise. Unless this guy is completely angling I'd shove with a lot less than AK. Perhaps A10+ any pair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall There are some terrible players around, even in big tourns. To say he will pass anything but AA or KK is very niave. You and I would need AA or KK to call, but we're not in the hand. I've seen similar calls with TT in the same sort of sitautions in 1k F/O's - sure you have too? Morls said the guy was fairly tight. Do we know this is a steal? I mean has he stole on the button previously? I'm not saying it's wrong to shove in this instance, I'm merely stating that AK should not come wit ha re-shove requisite. Its never a requisite shove .... just in this case it is ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Ok.....seems To Have Given Some Healthy Debate....ill Let You Know What I Did, What Happened And How I Felt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I KNOW I bet too much pre-flop, thats a gimme, i made a mistake and knew it almost immediately after when i counted the pot again however ill learn from that and following the advice on here it will make me a better player. I decided to call, as i FELT the attempt at the raise was genuine, he had not stolen much and didnt take advantage of his position much in previous levels, so I had the gut feeling that he did have a hand of some strength. The flop comes down Q 8 7 rainbow and Im looking at him as the flop comes down, as soon as the dealer said "queen" his eyes sort of lit up, hes either gay or hes got one in his hand. I check He ponders and fires out 20k I fold.....I knew he had the Q and wanted to end the hand there and then. At the end of the day, he comes up to me and says, "I had ace/queen, did u have ak" My read on him was right, but the mistake was already made and it cost me 13100 of my stack:wall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Now we shouldnt be results orientated but ..... If you shoved on him he would have folded, and your 10k chips up instead of being 10k down, a swing of the average stack for the tourney. Personally I think your call is worse then your over raise pre flop. Your calling hoping to hit which you will do 1 in 3 times and even then could still possibly be behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall So, would he have folded to a push ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall He'd have to fold. He found out his AQ was no good only a complete donk would call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Morls I was standing watching that particular hand and I'm sure you've got one crucial piece of information incorrect... he checked the flop and then bet 20k on the turn... Now we've spoke about this hand a lot and I said I'd probably play it differently but that's why I was standing watching rather than playing... :eyes I disagree with ppl saying the raise is too big - I'm happy with the raise pre-flop... at this stage there's enough in the pot to take the blinds and ante's... and you don't really want to be playing AK OOP AT THIS STAGE of the tourney IMO..... it's an hour before the end of the day..... surely now the aim is to try and get to day 2 with a healthy stack (as you have atm).... bear in mind that the chip leader had around 80k so your not really that far away and have 2x the avg stack. now I would have played post flop differently - you check cos you've missed but then he checks - that means either two things imo.... 1. he's hit a monster, 2. he's missed everything..... so on the turn (which was a blank).... i would take a stab at the pot - find out where you are... if he re-pops or calls thn your beat..... i think there's enough in the pot to have a stab at it. i don't believe he had AQ as i think he would of deffo bet the flop.... but you seemed to think he was genuine so maybe he was telling the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall as usual i get my bad hands wrong........sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Firstly (if calling) you don't necessarily need to hit the flop to win the hand. You're all assuming a c-bet was coming. I saw 2nd round all-in call in the £500 rebuy (20k stacks) at the Gutshot last year with AhJh - you never know who you're playing. As GG says - we don't know he had AQ and that he would've folded preflop. He may've had TT and called your all-in, or JJ and called your all-in. You would've been out. As it stood, you were still in and with double the average stack. Not too shabby. Personally I always find it easier to win a tourn from that position than the rail. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Doesnt matter if the Q hits- the money should have gone in pre (whether he calls or folds you still have the best hand) And pls pls pls anyone saying this pre flop raise if fine read up on the game! Betting that much is turning the hand into an utter bluff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Why not? twice the average stack can soon become average stack again unless you continue to build Of course but there are plenty of opportunities to build without committing 62k preflop with AK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Morls I was standing watching that particular hand and I'm sure you've got one crucial piece of information incorrect... he checked the flop and then bet 20k on the turn... Now we've spoke about this hand a lot and I said I'd probably play it differently but that's why I was standing watching rather than playing... :eyes I disagree with ppl saying the raise is too big - I'm happy with the raise pre-flop... at this stage there's enough in the pot to take the blinds and ante's... and you don't really want to be playing AK OOP AT THIS STAGE of the tourney IMO..... it's an hour before the end of the day..... surely now the aim is to try and get to day 2 with a healthy stack (as you have atm).... bear in mind that the chip leader had around 80k so your not really that far away and have 2x the avg stack. now I would have played post flop differently - you check cos you've missed but then he checks - that means either two things imo.... 1. he's hit a monster, 2. he's missed everything..... so on the turn (which was a blank).... i would take a stab at the pot - find out where you are... if he re-pops or calls thn your beat..... i think there's enough in the pot to have a stab at it. i don't believe he had AQ as i think he would of deffo bet the flop.... but you seemed to think he was genuine so maybe he was telling the truth. What does a 6400 raise UTG do that a 4800-5000 raise doesnt achieve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall meh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I think what this thread should do, or perhaps what I was trying to do, was to dare to insist that there is no set way to play any hands - AK espeically. Like I've said before, many players make the mistake of always re-raising with AK. With this hand it's dependent on many things - how the hand was played and player history - all the normal things. Shoving in here, although certainly not wrong, it isn't what I'd do against a equally big stack (although obviously as I'm reading on a forum I'm basing this on having no reads). It's just the way I play. Neither opinion is right or wrong, but it can be right or wrong to each individual. I don't like pushing edges in this sort of situation (when comfortable vs another big stack). I do well in tournaments obviously, so it proves that this way of thinking suits, or at least sits well, with me. So it cannot be wrong for me. It proves that certain styles suit different players and different players can be successful using tactics that suit them. I would've probably flat called in this position, but I'm happy to mix things up after the flop (I'm a post-flop player, not an MIS - possibly down to my cash background). Once the flat call was made, perhaps a stab on the turn was in order. I do not think for a second he had AQ so I think the turn bet would've got through. Horses for course an' all that, and different horses have equal success on different courses. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Horses for course an' all that, and different horses have equal success on different courses. :ok But who is the Quixall Crossett of PuntersLounge poker :drums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall But who is the Quixall Crossett of PuntersLounge poker :drums QC was unlucky, it was never tried at his best trip...... ......Belgium one-way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I think what this thread should do, or perhaps what I was trying to do, was to dare to insist that there is no set way to play any hands - AK espeically. Like I've said before, many players make the mistake of always re-raising with AK. With this hand it's dependent on many things - how the hand was played and player history - all the normal things. Shoving in here, although certainly not wrong, it isn't what I'd do against a equally big stack (although obviously as I'm reading on a forum I'm basing this on having no reads). It's just the way I play. Neither opinion is right or wrong, but it can be right or wrong to each individual. I don't like pushing edges in this sort of situation (when comfortable vs another big stack). I do well in tournaments obviously, so it proves that this way of thinking suits, or at least sits well, with me. So it cannot be wrong for me. It proves that certain styles suit different players and different players can be successful using tactics that suit them. I would've probably flat called in this position, but I'm happy to mix things up after the flop (I'm a post-flop player, not an MIS - possibly down to my cash background). Once the flat call was made, perhaps a stab on the turn was in order. I do not think for a second he had AQ so I think the turn bet would've got through. Horses for course an' all that, and different horses have equal success on different courses. :ok Im sorry Billy but flat calling the raise OOP with AK against another big stack, for almost a 1/3 to 1/4 of his stack can NEVER be the right play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Im sorry Billy but flat calling the raise OOP with AK against another big stack' date=' for almost a 1/3 to 1/4 of his stack can NEVER be the right play.[/quote'] I don't agree that is can NEVER be right - that's the point, it can never be "never"! I just don't feel comfortable about playing a huge flop before the pot with AK. I said I would probably flat call. It would depend on many things. To be honest I don't know what I would do until actually in that situation. That's why many of these "What would you do threads" are always tricky - I try not to play the same hand the same way twice on the trot. I'm really happy with my tourn record - with regards to cash S/R's and ROI's, so I'm comfortable with my current tactics, which surely is important. There are many occasions where I would re-shove here, but not 100% of the time like so many on here suggest. Also, do you think playing out of position is as much of a hinderance if the opponent is weak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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