Betting out of turn post flop

[GaF]

How important is respecting the "betting lead" post flop when out of position? Just played this hand: ***** Hand 1125057072 ***** 0.25/0.50 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - Monday, June 16, 2008 11:09:44 PM Table TH 196 (Real /Cash Game ) Seat 1: BusterVD (70.15) Seat 2: francezu (49.27) Seat 3: PLTelepee (70.69) Seat 4: Panda_love (80.71) Seat 5: MonikaRoza (72.75) francezu post SB 0.25 PLTelepee post BB 0.50 ** Deal ** BusterVD [N/A, N/A] francezu [N/A, N/A] PLTelepee [Qs, Qh] Panda_love [N/A, N/A] MonikaRoza [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** Panda_love Fold MonikaRoza Fold BusterVD Raise to 2.00 francezu Fold PLTelepee Call 2.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [6c, Ks, 3d] *** Bet Round 2 *** PLTelepee Check BusterVD Bet 4.25 PLTelepee Raise to 10.62 BusterVD Fold *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.60 Total Pot: 12.15 BusterVD Fold Win: 0.00 francezu Fold Win: 0.00 PLTelepee By default Win: 12.15 Panda_love Fold Win: 0.00 MonikaRoza Fold Win: 0.00 First off - I would normally reraise pre flop, however on this occasion against this opponent I decided to flat call. Please ignore that. The flop obviously had the scare card, the king. I wanted to take a stab at it, I wanted to find out where I was and I wanted to do it as cheaply as possible. I was first to act post flop. Ideally I'd have put out a bet there and then, however I felt it looked too fishy to bet out of turn as he was the pre flop raiser, so thought that I had to check to him. I expected him to bet out with or without a hand. It came back to me and I check raised him (he folded, but that is irrelevent to this discussion) My check raise, with a vulnerable hand cost me 21xBB. Could I have found out any cheaper where I was? Could I have bet out post flop without fearing that betting out of turn would be viewed as a bit strange and invited a move on me?

[Nade]

Re: Betting out of turn post flop From my experience of short-handed about 8/10 times you'll be re-raised if you lead out OOP in this kind of scenario and you're still left wondering where you are (And it's extremely pissing off!!) Check raise i've found to be a good tool to use in spots like these. Ultimately the check-raise looks uber strong so you do find out where you are 95% of times. I know you didn't want comment on it but have to say calling pre flop with premium hands is a huge no-no short handed .

[Hodgey]

Re: Betting out of turn post flop

From my experience of short-handed about 8/10 times you'll be re-raised if you lead out OOP in this kind of scenario and you're still left wondering where you are (And it's extremely pissing off!!)

I would agree with that completely. Also in this specific hand he's bet the pot with no draws (if you discount him raising with 45) or flushes on the board - would you really do that if you paired your king or made trips? Sometimes you hear commentators say "first to bet wins this hand" - I think in instances like this the first to bet is gonna get raised out of the hand (unless they really have something) cos similarly on that board would you really bet out? I'd be more likely to induce the continuation bet from the pre-flop raiser and then test him with a raise if I had a King or find out where you are like you did.

[robsterling]

Re: Betting out of turn post flop I don't like betting into the raiser unless you know how the raiser reacts to such a bet. The problem with leading into the raiser it can evoke a fold, call or raise with any holding so you find out far less information about your opponents hand than a check raise which is a more standard move. Some people will be raising with ATC, some people will call with ATC and some people fold unless they connected. Until you have a good idea of what your opponent will do I think it is better to avoid this move. However, whether there is value in this move will be deemed a lot by the c-betting characteristics of your opponent. If he/she c-bets very often, let them c-bet there is no reason to lead because most of the time a c/r will take the pot down (and it will be larger than before the c-bet obviously). If the opponent rarely c-bets than a lead may be useful, especially to protect the equity of a strong draw. Because if the opponent doesn't c-bet and you miss the turn you have lost equity. It goes without saying that it is definitely worth making notes on how regulars respond to these "donk bets" and then you can use this weapon more effectively in your armoury. In the hand you played, disregarding the preflop, I would have probably check called the flop as its not a particulary drawy board and you will fold out every hand you are beating with a c/r and all the hands beating you will call or reraise. I'm happy to peel off another card here a lot confident I have the best hand and trying to get value from an aggressive button.