happyhornet Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 This one is my exit hand from last nights WSOP final. 3 hours in and 58 left. I have doubled up three hands ago and sit with 4296 chips. This is still about half of the average and I am in about 50th place. Blinds are 300/600 with 75 ante, and I figure that I need to make a move soon. My table image is 'tighter than a duck's arse'. UTG (12581 chips) limps, it is folded around to me. I have AQs. I pushed all-in. He waited for what seemed an age and called. He had 66 and they held up. I am so unsure whether that was the right move in this particular circumstance with such a big prize not too far away. Should I played it differently, waited to be first into the pot? As an aside, what do people think of calling for over a quarter of his chips with 66? Not sure I would have done that either. As always any thoughts positive and negative are gratefully received. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 i dont think either of you made a particularly bad move at this point:ok you were getting very near the point where you will have to push whatever happens. although aq isn't the absolute best hand in the world, it isn't behind to much and with a limper the extra blind could help a lot. its pretty unlikely someone would limp in with aces/kings/queens/ak this late in the tourney from utg, so chances were you had a race at worst. although his call looks a little rough, he knows he can and not be seriously crippled if you win . also your holding could be a little less than the norm or could be a steal.this really shouldnt effect 6s to much anyway as its likely to be a race at best , with a decent pot to be had it's probably worth the risk to get to a point of relative safety in the game without the risk of going out, or being crippled:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goater14 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 Not sure Steve if its a good thing or a bad thing but I would of done the same, your looking for a spot to double up and that was it. not sure about the call with 66, tough decision for him, be interesting what others think about calling in this spot. But as I said I,m moving all-in 100% of the time here. Come to think of it i went out in the same circumstances short stacked pushed all-in with AQ and ran into kings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 Have to agree with Ubermonkey - neither of you played it badly. I would have called with 66 in his position. He knows you could shove with a wide range of hands and are unlikely to have done it with a monster as you want a caller to double up. So he knows that at worst he's up against 77, 88, 99, 1010. Other than that he's ahead and he has enough chips to be in no danger if he loses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiceofjoe Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 What position where you in on the table ? If you where in the Blinds or on the Button then I'd probably done the same - if you still had a few stacks behind you I may have thought twice ...... and then probably still pushed. Difficult to get away from when you need the chips - although as a rule I'd rather be pushing first in when Short Stacked. I'd definitely have called what appears to be a desparation raise from a Short Stack and get heads up holding 66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 Bad play IMO With no action before you yes shove but with an EP limper you need to think where you are and it is most probably behind. In this case where you are not looking to gather chips but just to survive I would even consider ditching A high (or limping) with no action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 I'm going to disagree, it's a clear push for me. I'm a fairly orthdox player, in situations like this, I like to go with Harringtons concept of M. your m is very low, below three. you can't play fancy poker. Your stack is still enough to hurt people, it's likely that you'll pick up the blinds unopposed. If not, you're likely to have live cards and at least a 40% chance. I don't think you're looking to surive at this stage (I don't know how many places win a package, if it's 57 then of course you fold it) assuming less than 10 places are paid, then for me you must be looking to accumulate chips quickly, before the blinds and antes degrade your stack to nothing. You have every reason to think your behind, but you need to take a chance. Another case where the call is different in a tournement versus a cash game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 (I don't know how many places win a package' date=' if it's 57 then of course you fold it) assuming less than 10 places are paid, then for me you must be looking to accumulate chips quickly[/quote'] 23. I think that number is engraved on many peoples' brains around here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 23. I think that number is engraved on many peoples' brains around here! ok, 23 eh ? Yep still pushing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 23. I think that number is engraved on many peoples' brains around here! MUWAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.....ha. :unsure Its good to see that there are a few different opinions. :ok As well as 'how many are there to act after', I think that its important as to your read on the limper. If he's played a lot of pots, especially limping pre flop then post flop aggressor then the pre flop shove isn't too bad, but I would be wary of it none the less. If he has sat fairly tight, then I would be more likely to limp, hoping to take the pot away on the flop. Basically make a stop n go play. Personally speaking, I'm not keen on his call with 66. He obviously thought that your range was wide and that he fancied a gamble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 you need to get into a position where you have a workable stack, AQ isnt going to be far behind most calling combos. Basically you arent going to be able to steal much (if at all) with the stack you have at the moment and postflop play is pretty much out of the question. You need to accumululate chips fast(ish). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 I think this is the weakest point of most tournament players game, what hands they call off their stack with. Harringtons M does not come into this situation it is just over 2-1 for a $13K package, AQ is not a great hand to be going all in with action before you. I personally would do it only as the first person in the pot and with lower SC's or any pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweetypie05 Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 I think this is the weakest point of most tournament players game, what hands they call off their stack with. Harringtons M does not come into this situation it is just over 2-1 for a $13K package, AQ is not a great hand to be going all in with action before you. I personally would do it only as the first person in the pot and with lower SC's or any pair. Brian - I'm very inetrested in what you have said coz I am a little surprised by your answer... Considering Hornet only had 7xBB left and with antes going around at what point would you consider going ALLIN with his hand to an early position limp? Never? 4xBB? What I'm trying to say is with the blinds at the current level and antes every round if you wait to get your money in first is this really a better position? Chances are your stack will be smaller, and the blinds bigger, the next time you have a 'hand'. Is pushing with SC or any pair but with a smaller stack at a later stage a better option? Isn't it mroe likely you will be called later or do you think bubble pressure will put players off calling later? I can see that maybe now isn't right, although I too would probably have shoved my chips in at this point, but would you have just called and risked more limpers to see the flop? Min-raised? Or is this hand a straight-forward fold? I would think that you would need to make a move in the next 2-3 rounds so by shoving now when you have a bigger hammer this could take you through to qualification if you double through or give you more breathing space if you just take down the blinds. To me it seems a marginal decision and I might have even just called to see the flop... oh, and please explain in short easy to understand words! TA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 still need about 50%of the players to go out so its not going to be bubble time for a while yet. i know what your saying about sc's as we have talked about that before ;)and seem to be on the same wavelength on that ,but in late position with a limper i'm pushing all day long.it sounds like your in late pos maybe 2/3/4 to act and the limper. it's unlikely one of the remaining players has a monster(but anythings possible)and it is pretty much push or fold time methinks. the only hands your really dead to are aa or ak, you have an ace so both are slightly less likely to appear:ok even against kk or qq you have a 1 in 4 chance, everything else your ahead or coinflip. if i was in earlier position then scs are a much better play than aq because you have 2 live cards instead of possibly being dominated, as a caller is likely to have a very good hand;) but late like this aq is a much better bet i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 Brian - I'm very inetrested in what you have said coz I am a little surprised by your answer... Considering Hornet only had 7xBB left and with antes going around at what point would you consider going ALLIN with his hand to an early position limp? Never? 4xBB? 7xBB is more than enough to wait for a better position, you are behind why shove, what are you hoping for, he has AJ? Why does there have to be a point you must do it? it is all about the situation I would have quite easily folded this and then on the next hand if it folded round to me shoved with any cards. Too many players are programmed to do what they have read and Harrington's strategy doesn't work in this situation you need to survive places not count your M. You see it in every tourney a player gets to 8 x BB and starts shoving in any situation, why? I dont understand it, especially in this case, a satellite with a flat payout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 I am with Brisn here i would not like calling here unless I knew the player was very loose. I much rather start the action than call the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweetypie05 Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 7xBB is more than enough to wait for a better position' date=' you are behind why shove, what are you hoping for, he has AJ? Why does there have to be a point you must do it? it is all about the situation I would have quite easily folded this and then on the next hand if it folded round to me shoved with any cards.quote'] Thanks Brian/Uber. More questions though... The UTG has limped in so why are you so sure that you're behind and he is ahead? Even if he is ahead, as in this case, with a small PP would he always call your ALLIN? If not then you could take the pot down. I think what you're saying is with another person already in why risk it when someone else wants to play their hand too? At this stage of the tournament when you only have 7xBB surely the only options you have are to shove or fold... so is your plan to 'steal' blinds when possible to stay alive? If so, then unlike the race scenario you are risking all your chips more times in order to achieve the same as the ALL-IN shove once after the limper. Is there not a greater risk of getting knocked out then? Also, you said the situation needs to be right i.e. no limpers but surley more often than not some-one else will have opened before you so you would not shove with AQo. This does not leave many opportunities IMO to gain chips. Obviously, with 23 paid the same, staying alive is more improtant than being first.... gonna have to think on this a bit more. You got me thinking! Nice one Brian... :ok Final question... sorry... in a normal Tournament where the prizes increase rather than being a flat payout would you have done the same? Are there any diferences? Would this change your decision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 I havent had the chance to read all of the posts, however from the rough idea I'm getting I agree with WASP. The concept of M is of little significance to the completely different scenario of a sat where top 23 win seats. M is about winning a tournament because payout structures are top heavy. The main goal in an MTT is to build chips. In a sat, your goal is simply to survive with 1 chip until 23 players are left. That doesn't necessarily mean being weak passive, but it does mean picking favourable situations. It's costing him about 3600 to win about 6000. He can afford it. He's getting just short of 2-1 - if he can put you on a wide enough range, then he has to call..... Not sure I like his limp UTG - that's a bad move IMO (though he does have the advantage of being able to pick and choose what stack sizes he calls - you were short enough for him to call) You were in a tight spot though - on balance I think I probably shove too..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted June 10, 2008 Author Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 Wow, thanks for the responses guys.:ok I'm glad it has caused a hearty discussion. One point i didnt make clear was that I was last to act in the BB. Not sure if that changes anything for anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 Can you put the HH up please HH? I always worry I'm missing valuable information (like the postition :tongue2 or how many antes there are/size of the pot) when the HH is not there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 I think what you know about the limper makes a big difference. In the later stages of tournaments you get a few people who will limp quite often and fold to a big raise. If I knew the limper was one of these, then I'd certainly shove here. On the other hand, you get some players who rarely limp, and when they do they're often slow-playing a big pair. Obviously if I knew the limper was one of these, then I wouldn't shove. I've said before that I'm very bad at paying attention to how others are playing, but one of the things I do try to pay attention to is limpers, especially late in a tournament. When you're starting to get short-stacked, it can be very profitable to have identified a limp-folder, as stealing 2.5xBB is significantly better than stealing 1.5xBB. With no information, I don't think I'd shove here. I've been burnt too many times by players slow-play limping. While the payout structure in a satellite like this should make a huge difference to how you play, especially near the bubble and if you have a comfortable stack, I don't think it should make so much difference when you're short-stacked, as here. In fact, other players (except the other short stacks and the very big stacks) should be very reluctant to call if you shove, so you can often get away with murder. Of course, just because they should fold to your shove doesn't mean they will, which is another reason it's especially important to know the players. In this hand, the call with 66 was far worse than the shove with AQs, in my opinion. But when he made a bad call, it didn't benefit you, it benefitted all the other players in the tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 In this hand, the call with 66 was far worse than the shove with AQs, in my opinion. But when he made a bad call, it didn't benefit you, it benefitted all the other players in the tournament. What pot odds would you need in this situation before a call with 66 would be justifiable against a short stack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 I think it was a good call with 66 at this stage, I would have done it :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 What pot odds would you need in this situation before a call with 66 would be justifiable against a short stack? I don't know. :unsure It obviously depends on what range you put the short stack on. But, probably even more importantly, it depends on the chip counts, which I don't know. Even if I knew, I wouldn't be able to give an accurate answer, but the general point is: If I have a big enough chip stack that I have a reasonable chance of getting to the last 23 without any heroics, then losing a quarter of my stack (especially if this would take me out of the "comfort zone") will hurt my chances of qualifying a lot more than gaining an extra quarter of my stack will increase my chances (it would just make me a bit more comfortable). So when I play significantly-sized pots, I need much better pot odds than the chip EV suggests. On the other hand, if I'm short-stacked and need to accumulate chips sometime soon to have a chance of qualifying, then doubling my stack will fairly close to double my chance of qualifying. So the pot odds I need are not so much different from the pot odds that the chip EV suggests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted June 10, 2008 Author Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 GaF. I can't seem to make the HH work for me. Either it is being difficult or I am being stupid. Both are possible. The details are 300/600/75 Blinds. 58 left, 23 get a ticket. I'm in 50th-odd UTG (12581- 2nd highest on table) limps with 66 Folded to BB who shoves for 3696 more with AQs UTG calls and the git wins.:cry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 UTG calls and the git wins.:cry Well he was favourite, probably entitled to win ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted June 10, 2008 Author Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 Well he was favourite' date=' probably entitled to win ;)[/quote'] If you're going to start bringing logic into it.....:moon:lol Further question for all but particularly WASP. The reason I posted this up was that I felt, with hindsight, that I may have been too hasty. Would your advice to check/fold (if necessary) and wait for a better opportunity be the same for a normal tournament which (for the sake of argument) paid out the top 20, but in a normal tournament fashion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 7xBB is more than enough to wait for a better position, you are behind why shove, what are you hoping for, he has AJ? Why does there have to be a point you must do it? it is all about the situation I would have quite easily folded this and then on the next hand if it folded round to me shoved with any cards. Too many players are programmed to do what they have read and Harrington's strategy doesn't work in this situation you need to survive places not count your M. You see it in every tourney a player gets to 8 x BB and starts shoving in any situation, why? I dont understand it, especially in this case, a satellite with a flat payout. i can understand it with maybe 40 left but here i'm not sure. out of interest ,do you remember how long till the blinds go up hornet? your going to have to play something soon because your out in like 3-4 revolutions max if you dont.also any players going out will speed up the rate your blinds are coming round ,so you could have 30 hands tops . after about 10-15 hands your going to have very little power to make others fold,so do you think a better situation will occur by then. i suppose its possible but its just as likely you will get rags every hand:( at least if you do push now you can sit back a bit if you do win,if you leave it too long a double up it will not help enough when you do/ i'm all for playing ultra tight if i need to and i'm quite happy to play a very short stack:okbut when a decent chance occurs you need to take it and i think this is a good chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 If you're going to start bringing logic into it.....:moon:lol Further question for all but particularly WASP. The reason I posted this up was that I felt, with hindsight, that I may have been too hasty. Would your advice to check/fold (if necessary) and wait for a better opportunity be the same for a normal tournament which (for the sake of argument) paid out the top 20, but in a normal tournament fashion? No just this tourney in that situation :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Part 7 your going to have to play something soon because your out in like 3-4 revolutions max if you dont.also any players going out will speed up the rate your blinds are coming round ,so you could have 30 hands tops . after about 10-15 hands your going to have very little power to make others fold,so do you think a better situation will occur by then. i suppose its possible but its just as likely you will get rags every hand:( at least if you do push now you can sit back a bit if you do win,if you leave it too long a double up it will not help enough when you do/ i'm all for playing ultra tight if i need to and i'm quite happy to play a very short stack:okbut when a decent chance occurs you need to take it and i think this is a good chance. That was my thinking as well, what pushed me over the edge into pushing wa the Antes, they degrade your stack everytime, and add extra value to the pot you play for, they make it more than a double up, the extra 675 chips make it compelling and +EV for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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