Valiant23 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Playing the 5c/10c cash tables on Boss Media (Virgin) in order to RH for the V-roll. I've tried to put the pot size in brackets as a help. ***** Hand 970395774 ***** 0.05/0.10 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 25 February 2008 18:12:51 Turbo TH 16 (Real/Cash Game) Seat 1: mantal13 (9.75) Seat 2: chocapic1 (9.00) Seat 3: Mandiyu114 (4.08) Seat 4: Shatterpro (11.32) Seat 5: nitro_74 (9.73) Seat 6: Bronkowich (6.29) Seat 7: sanhez (6.46) Seat 8: wovercome (3.78) Seat 9: kata106 (9.92) Seat 10: PV23pl (3.75) Mandiyu114 [N/A, N/A] Shatterpro [N/A, N/A] nitro_74 [N/A, N/A] Bronkowich [N/A, N/A] sanhez [N/A, N/A] wovercome [N/A, N/A] kata106 [N/A, N/A] PV23pl [8c, 8s] *** Bet Round 1 *** Shatterpro Fold nitro_74 Fold Bronkowich Fold sanhez Call 0.10 wovercome Raise to 0.20 kata106 Call 0.20 PV23pl Call 0.20 mantal13 Fold chocapic1 Fold Mandiyu114 Fold sanhez Call 0.20 ($1.05) *** Flop(Board): *** : [10d, 3d, 8d] So, I have middle set on a flushed flop. Question one; On a flop like that are you happy to play or looking/expecting to fold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Re: Opinions Please I'm happy to play - EVEN if someone has the flush, I have a lot of outs to House up by the river (I'm about 35-40% to hit a flush or quads?) - more likely I'm up against a lone diamond - I want them to overpay for their draw on the turn and the river..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please I think you need to be prepared to do either. You're last to act so use the information you gather in postion to make your decision. If no one is betting then you have to play, if everyone is All In you probably have to fold (although at these micro stakes there may be a case to call). Ideally I think you stay in the hand relatively cheaply and no more diamonds come down on the board, but your play is determined by what the others do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please I'm happy to bet out into this, push out a pot sized bet and be prepared to fold if you hit serious resistance. chances are you're facing a single diamond, or even something like A 10 A fourth diamond on the board would mean an insta fold though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippe6 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please knowing boss players at these stakes id be ready to fold from strenth they love suited cards try to keep it cheap till the board pairs then whack it in they will still call you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please I'm definitely playing but I'd like to see how much cash each player has before the hand started.......is that omitted from Virgin HH or did you remove it yourself V? :unsure TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please I missed it off mate, sorry. Added in Post No.1. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please I've lost count the number of times I see this kind of hand. You play a pair like 88 in order to hit trips, and when you do there is either stronger made hands or good draws which can decimate your stack. Anyway, thanks for your replies. :ok *** Bet Round 2 *** sanhez Check wovercome Bet 0.20 ($1.25) kata106 Call 0.20 ($1.45) PV23pl Raise to 0.40 ($1.85) I decided that a minimum raise would represent the nuts and I just wanted to get more cash in the pot, but in reality I wanted to see how they would react to such a play (gain information), and keep it cheap. sanhez Fold wovercome Call 0.40 (2.25) - drawing? kata106 Raise to 1.00 (3.05) - flush or aggressive nut draw As far as I was concerned, I had my info, and fantastic odds. I was drawing to any T, 3 or 8 plus a runner runner paired board. I had decided that I would have to drop if my hand didn't improve though. So, PV23pl Call 1.00 (3.65) 60c into a 2.25 pot wovercome Fold *** Turn(Board): *** : [10d, 3d, 8d, 3c] *** Bet Round 3 *** kata106 Bet 2.55 PV23pl All-in 2.55 *** River(Board): *** : [10d, 3d, 8d, 3c, 7h] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.42 Total Pot: 8.03 kata106 [6d, Ad] Ace high flush Win: 0.00 PV23pl [8c, 8s] Full house Win: 8.03 So, did I play this hand badly? Or did I play it correctly? Knock yourselves out. I really want to know. Thanks. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please I've lost count the number of times I see this kind of hand. You play a pair like 88 in order to hit trips, and when you do there is either stronger made hands or good draws which can decimate your stack. Anyway, thanks for your replies. :ok Mr V, I don't like the Pre-flop play practically limping in with probably the best hand at the time from one seat off the button.....maybe this is the reason for your statement above. :unsure Pocket Pair...chuck in a $0.40 raise and try and narrow the field down, then when you hit the set you're not going to have folk against you with crap like 28suited. (hopefully) The lad with the A6s would probably have still called so the outcome would've been the same. :D After the flop you've explained each stage well as to what you were thinking and of course the turn was great for you so a good result in the end.:clap:clap By the way, the raked hands are sooooo much easier to get on 5 seater tables and you'll be more profitable there too! :ok TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Poker stove tells me you are a 35% dog on that flop, his raise on the flop gives you odds of 4/1 to call, plus massive implied odds if you hit, when he's flopped the nut flush he's there till the death. If you hit you'll stack him. Your play is perfectly acceptable. More interesting question is, what would you do if he reraised to $2 on the flop and you don't have odds to call ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Thanks for the advice mate but 5 handed cash is for me, a step too far just at the moment. I'm still very much a novice on the cash tables (only playing them to rake hands at the moment). I think that you are right about the raise to 40c, but would that leave me open to a pre flop decision I don't really want, if someone re-raises my re-raise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Your play is perfectly acceptable. More interesting question is, what would you do if he reraised to $2 on the flop and you don't have odds to call ??I refuse to answer on the grounds that I think I know my answer, and to disclose the information would prove to Gaf? that, contrary to my repeated belief that odds aren't the be all and end all, in actual fact I was quite aware of not only my pot odds, but my implied odds. :lol No, I didn't have enough cash left behind me to have even the implied odds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Opinions Please No, I didn't have enough cash left behind me to have even the implied odds. There's hope for you yet :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Question one; On a flop like that are you happy to play or looking/expecting to fold? At this level I am shoving Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Re: Opinions Please please don't min raise, just don't do it, its very very very very very very very very very bad play - any womble with any diamond will call you no matter how small their diamond is - why give them fantastic odds to hit their hand? You don't have the nuts, so why try to represent the nuts? most players at this level are not observant, so being clever tends not to work - however, if you have played this way previously in this session with the nuts and had someones stack because of it then they might remember and makes the play more acceptable. and why give the original min raiser an opportunity to hit trips with his (possible) AA/KK hand - the min raise is often someone playing a premium hand that way. after the re-re-raise I would ship my cash in the middle (though as I said in response to your first post, I would have shipped my cash in on the flop regardless of the action). If you miss the turn and he shoves then what? you calling with middle set? make decisions easier for yourself not harder would be my advice Nice post:ok Damo *** Bet Round 2 *** sanhez Check wovercome Bet 0.20 ($1.25) kata106 Call 0.20 ($1.45) PV23pl Raise to 0.40 ($1.85) I decided that a minimum raise would represent the nuts and I just wanted to get more cash in the pot, but in reality I wanted to see how they would react to such a play (gain information), and keep it cheap. sanhez Fold wovercome Call 0.40 (2.25) - drawing? kata106 Raise to 1.00 (3.05) - flush or aggressive nut draw As far as I was concerned, I had my info, and fantastic odds. I was drawing to any T, 3 or 8 plus a runner runner paired board. I had decided that I would have to drop if my hand didn't improve though. So, PV23pl Call 1.00 (3.65) 60c into a 2.25 pot wovercome Fold *** Turn(Board): *** : [10d, 3d, 8d, 3c] *** Bet Round 3 *** kata106 Bet 2.55 PV23pl All-in 2.55 *** River(Board): *** : [10d, 3d, 8d, 3c, 7h] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.42 Total Pot: 8.03 kata106 [6d, Ad] Ace high flush Win: 0.00 PV23pl [8c, 8s] Full house Win: 8.03 So, did I play this hand badly? Or did I play it correctly? Knock yourselves out. I really want to know. Thanks. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsterling Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Re: Opinions Please At this level I am shoving Damo With this stack (why so shortstacked?) I am shoving at any level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Add me to the I would have shoved the flop list, or at least raised enough to eliminate the gut shot straight brigade and any open ended straight draws too and anything other than the ace of diamonds or a made flush. Minimum raise was asking for trouble, thankfully you got away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Damo, I appreciate your input, but I have to ask (you as well glc), why shove on that flop? In your reply, one second you're saying 'why represent the nuts' and in the next breath you're also saying even though you don't have it you should shove anyway. I'm a beginner on the cash tables and trying to tone down my aggressiveness. I understand your point about making decisions easier but I thought that for once I managed to achieve that by waiting until I did have (near enough) the nuts. Also, how can shoving help your decision making in the future? With this stack (why so shortstacked?)Basically I'm limiting my exposure. I only wanted to take a few dollars to the table in order to rake hands. I started off on there with $2, added $1 and left with $19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Re: Opinions Please If you shove, you have no more decisions to make, so it's easy ;) Your draw is so strong - EVEN if you're behind, you have loads of outs, unless your opponent has TT. TT is the only hand you've really scared of, and that you're well behind to.... Shoving guarantees that you see two more cards - a small bet, and you can get pushed off on the turn if you missed with the first card... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Re: Opinions Please One thing that is unlikely in this type of situation is that some one has a made flush, its also pretty unlikely that some one has the nut flush draw and even if they do you are a strong fav to win the pot. If either is the case and you lose so be it stick it in the bad bet thread. You cant let anyone outdraw you with baby flush, gut shot straight combo's or an over pair. Every thing from the k of diamonds down should fold and so should any straight draw or over pair. Wee bit of reverse psychology, the all in does mean that the Ace of diamonds caller also has no more desicions to make either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dik9 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Mr V = Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Absoltely! :moon Thing is dik, you need me to come to DTD as eye candy. :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Re: Opinions Please you don't have the nuts so min raising to represent the nuts at this level is pontless as most players are not observant or 'savvy' and will call with any part of the flop. They wont recognise the move and blindly call hoping you are bluffing/have trips/2 pair etc and that they wil hit another diamond to make their 5 high flush etc. So you are best to shove and make the flush/str draws pay for the privilege. When you have a good/made hand at this level I would always shove and get the calls from the drawing hands/top pair/over pair to your trips etc. From my (fairly limited) experience of cash games, that is how you make money at low levels, not by waiting for aces/kings and doiubling up, but getting someone on the flop when they have half a hand and will call your AI chasing to hit. shoving the flop makes your decision proces very easy - if you call that flop and another diamond arrives and you face a pot bet now what? are you calling or folding? remember folks at this lveel will bet again with A10 bluffing the flush with only TPTK - too many people bluff and don't bet thair made hands strongly enough. So by shoving there are no more decisions to be made, hence why its easier than calling and facing another bet on the turn potentially OOP against 2 other players. Just my thoughts Damo ps aggressive is the way in cash games, be very aggressive when you have a hand:ok yuiovig Damo, I appreciate your input, but I have to ask (you as well glc), why shove on that flop? In your reply, one second you're saying 'why represent the nuts' and in the next breath you're also saying even though you don't have it you should shove anyway. I'm a beginner on the cash tables and trying to tone down my aggressiveness. I understand your point about making decisions easier but I thought that for once I managed to achieve that by waiting until I did have (near enough) the nuts. Also, how can shoving help your decision making in the future? Basically I'm limiting my exposure. I only wanted to take a few dollars to the table in order to rake hands. I started off on there with $2, added $1 and left with $19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Cheers Damo. Much clearer. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted March 1, 2008 Share Posted March 1, 2008 Re: Opinions Please Cheers Damo. Much clearer. :ok My pleasure Andy - have been playing a fair amount of low level cash games for the past few months and pot betting/denying odds does not seem to put people off:eyes, so I started to take the more aggresive approach of playing shove poker in the situations you describe, and have had folks calling AI shoves on the flop for $5 or more with middle pair etc. As I said these are the hands that make money, not having Aces and somone else having KK Hope you good run continues:ok Cheers Damo ps I am playing short handed - how it differs at a full table I am unsure of :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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