Hornet's Strategy Questions.

[happyhornet]

Hi all, I recently posted on PL a query regarding a fold I made. Your responses were excellent:notworthy,and as a result I have changed the way I play those trouble hands, and since then have cashed in 5 out of 7 tournaments. I thought I might put up on here some hypotheticals based on problem parts of my game, and see what advice you could offer. The first is online-MTT based. The scenario is that we are in the first level of an MTT, the blinds are 10/20. You are in the BB with 1460 chips, everyone else has between 1400 and 1600 chips and you have no read on any player. UTG+1 calls, the Button follows suit as does the SB. You have AJo What is your action here? I'm always torn between checking and raising. If you raise, how much? Cheers Steve

[glceud]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Easy check, probably better of folding it if you could

[Nade]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. I check as there's barely anything in the pot at that level to win pre flop plus good implied odds with disguised hand.

[GaF]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Check :ok The "advice" I've been tring to incorporate into my game recently is - decide if you want to play a big pot or a small pot!! Here, you are out of position with a hand that isn't very strong - keep the pot small!!!

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. check for me as well:ok

[SteveO]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Definitely a check, no reads on any player keep the pot small!

[happyhornet]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. I did normally check, but was unsure what to do post-flop. However another question: Same scenario, what hands would you have raised with? AA KK QQ JJ AKs, poss AKo Thoughts?

[glceud]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. I'd raise with kk and qq and call with the others Begining to think flat calling with all hands early doors is the best aproach and folding everything bar aces and kings in the BB to any sort of raise.

[Nade]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. " Same scenario, what hands would you have raised with? AA KK QQ JJ AKs, poss AKo" All of these of course. It doesn't even need to be questioned surely? The thing with the blinds at this level is people will limp with anything as it's such a miniscule proportion of their stack so my strategy with a premium hand in this situation is raise raise raise. Why limp with aces then the flop comes JQ8 you raise out they re-raise you feel obliged to go all in as it may push them off their hand which is all you can hope for as you have no idea whatsoever what they've got as there was no raise pre-flop. No need to take the risk. If you just take the blinds so what you've won the hand. The diff. here for me is you want to bet when you know you're ahead, and with that AJ you don't know you're ahead - just limp and hope to hit the flop hard but with a premium hand i'd bet out. For me personally there's no worse feeling than losing with a premium hand because i let others in cheaply :wall

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. yep big raise for me as well with any big pair or ak. i would at least put 7x the bb in as you have to narrow the field . letting 3 players in cheap is very dangerous you have no real clue of the other players holdings and a innocuous looking flop might have you losing a lot of money to 2 pair or even low trips . its always better to win a small pot than lose a big one but a lot of the time you get action in these sort of situations anyway,someone always seems to think your on a steal if you do raise ,so i think it gets you better pots than slowplaying and its safer:ok.

[glceud]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. Raising in the BB for miniscule gains early doors in a tourney is not a great idea IMHO. Have to say I answered this thread as if it was a tourney of some value. Of course in a freeroll or small buy in event raise you might get a caller or even a reraise. Personally if I am going to play a pot in the blinds I want a massive hand and that doesnt mean one pair or ace high

[AJ]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions.

I did normally check, but was unsure what to do post-flop. However another question: Same scenario, what hands would you have raised with? AA KK QQ JJ AKs, poss AKo Thoughts?

Slansky / Miller / Malmouth which is pretty much my poker bible at present says, in the BB without a raise 3 people in the pot, you should raise with AA - 99, AKs - ATs, KQs - KJs and AKo - AQo

[glceud]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions.

Slansky / Miller / Malmouth which is pretty much my poker bible at present says' date=' in the BB without a raise 3 people in the pot, you should raise with AA - 99, AKs - ATs, KQs - KJs and AKo - AQo[/quote'] Glad I dont read poker books any more. Be very suprised if Slansky had much input in this one. But thats the beauty of poker its just one big game of paper/scissors/stone

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. exactly ,everybody plays it different and there are so many grey areas where there is no right and wrong so the flat call is not a bad play at all ,but i only do it in certain situations. if i was on a really tight table then once in a while i would flat call with a really big hand especially against players i play regularly (for instance the pl game), just because it makes you tricky to read. but in most games vs unknowns i would raise every time and try to take the safe option.

[happyhornet]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. As always guys, thanks for your input. I think I was a few:beerin when i asked the secondary question. as Nade pointed out, raising with Aces here is fairly obvious, the question perhaps should have been phrased where do you draw the line between checking and raising? Particularly AQo or Pocket 9/10's, would you raise with them?

[Nade]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. I'd usually check with any pockets less than 77. Also check with AJo and below.

[Valiant23]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions.

As always guys' date=' thanks for your input. I think I was a few:beerin when i asked the secondary question. as Nade pointed out, raising with Aces here is fairly obvious, the question perhaps should have been phrased where do you draw the line between checking and raising? Particularly AQo or Pocket 9/10's, would you raise with them?[/quote'] I agree with glceud here (payback time! :lol). If you raise with AA and get callers you will either win a small pot on the flop or lose a big one. By limping with AA, not only do you disguise the strength of your hand it makes it a damn sight easier to get away from in the case of an unfriendly flop. You don't want to get married to a hand so early in the tournament. You can't win a tourney on the first level but you can lose it. :ok

[Nade]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions.

I agree with glceud here (payback time! :lol). If you raise with AA and get callers you will either win a small pot on the flop or lose a big one. By limping with AA, not only do you disguise the strength of your hand it makes it a damn sight easier to get away from in the case of an unfriendly flop. You don't want to get married to a hand so early in the tournament. You can't win a tourney on the first level but you can lose it. :ok

That's pretty contradictory to me as you say a tournament can be lost early on but limping with Aces here will in fact increase your chances of losing the hand. If your of the mindset that you're scared of losing with Aces then why not go all in pre flop? as you're guaranteed to be putting your money in when ahead - it removes all element of doubt. The whole mindset that you'll lose a big pot or win a small one here is so negative really :eek If you do get a caller or two it's still extremely unlikely they'll flop 2 pair at least and by raising this chance is reduced still further i.e. by raising pre flop it increases your chances of winning the hand and reduces the chances of going out of the tournament IMO.

[Valiant23]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions.

That's pretty contradictory to me as you say a tournament can be lost early on but limping with Aces here will in fact increase your chances of losing the hand.

Actually I'm saying that limping with AA increase the chances of you not getting married to the hand and therefore increasing your ability to get away from it. I'd rather lose the hand and win the tournament. The important thing to me is that;

The scenario is that we are in the first level of an MTT

If your of the mindset that you're scared of losing with Aces

Is that what I said? I thought I was saying that AA isn't all that its cracked up to be and you often see it played 'by the book' and get slaughtered by all manner of hands early on in a tournament.

If your of the mindset that you're scared of losing with Aces then why not go all in pre flop? as you're guaranteed to be putting your money in when ahead - it removes all element of doubt.

Excellent advice and one I'll put into practice when I take up poker. You could have been even more constructive by providing the link to your bad beat thread so that I can whinge when I lose my coinflip. :ok

The whole mindset that you'll lose a big pot or win a small one here is so negative really :eek If you do get a caller or two it's still extremely unlikely they'll flop 2 pair at least and by raising this chance is reduced still further i.e. by raising pre flop it increases your chances of winning the hand and reduces the chances of going out of the tournament IMO.

Thats your point of view but early on in most tournaments people see the value in calling raises with junk, knowing that the raiser will get tied to a hand even if they don't improve on the flop and knowing that if they don't hit their hand heavy they can get away from it fairly cheaply.

[Nade]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. We'll have to agree to disagree then. Or just disagree.

[glceud]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions.

That's pretty contradictory to me as you say a tournament can be lost early on but limping with Aces here will in fact increase your chances of losing the hand. Its not contradctory at all limping decreases your chance of loosing the tournement it also might decrease your chances of winning it but thats not the question If your of the mindset that you're scared of losing with Aces then why not go all in pre flop? as you're guaranteed to be putting your money in when ahead - it removes all element of doubt. This getting your chips in when ahead mindset is correct in cash games as the odds are that if you continually go in ahead you will win more often than not and show a profit. If you want to play poker in a way that removes any further desicions that fine, personally I prefer to make my bets after the flop and then you dont have to put your chips in when ahead The whole mindset that you'll lose a big pot or win a small one here is so negative really :eek If you do get a caller or two it's still extremely unlikely they'll flop 2 pair at least and by raising this chance is reduced still further i.e. by raising pre flop it increases your chances of winning the hand and reduces the chances of going out of the tournament IMO. The whole point of debate here is your position and no matter how good your cards are it sucks

As Valiant said a "traditional" raise with any of the afore mentioned hands just tells the players after you what you are holding. I dont mind telling people I have kings or queens if they want to call the raise they can, I'll know were I am when I stick my pot sized bet in after the flop. I dont want them to now I have AA or A/K as, if I have a pair after the flop I have top pair or top pair/top kicker and can play it from there and with limpes I would expect to get paid by smaller pairs or same pair with a worse kicker

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. I cant believe anybody would want to limp in the BB with Aces against 3 players ?? - By limping how does that stop you getting married to them (Aces - not the other players), you have 'the' premium starting hand and your virtually saying - 'I not bothered about playing this hand to win' Early doors in MTT you would get an awful lot of poor players who would play Top Pair to its conclusion. You should be putting out a decent raise, if they all fold then so be it you've gained very little but lost nothing. If they re-rasie you then excellent - you've got them hooked If they call then your playing as favorite, what better position to enter a pot. I'm in agreement with Nade on this one you should be playing Aces thinking your going to win not expecting your going to get outdrawn, by raising your most likely going to get calls by all the hands that you dominate AJ,AK,AT,KK,QQ I know your never going to win a tournament in the early levels, and as you say can easily lose it. But you still need to accumulate chips, and being afraid of being outdrawn is 'the glass is 1/2 empty' negative approach of Poker - as opposed to I'm out for everything I can get 'the glass is 1/2 full' approach

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. i had exactly this situation on thursday night in the very first hand of a 30 euro stt blinds at 15/30. 3 limpers and the small blind call i'm on the bb with kk. i put in a 7xbb raise so a bit over a pot bet and get 2 callers. so the pot is up to 690 ,i bet the pot on a q high flop and they both folded. now if i had flat called here i don't think i would make anywhere near this much .if they had a queen i think i would have been more likely to get a call on the flop with the amount already in the pot ,as i had both of them a lot more committed to the pot. the reason i put this hand up is because of the situation. being the first hand they don't really know me as i only recognised 1 or 2 players.i knew somebody with a ok hand would call thinking i was on a steal (for some reason people always seem to be a bit looser early doors), luckily 2 called and i got a good pot. if i had been sitting tight for ages i would have toned it down a bit maybe 4x bb. if i had a aggressive table image i may have pushed a little more and would probably still get at least 1 caller who then is married to the hand that they have, if they hit:hope. if i had a player/players who have called bets with marginal holdings again i would bet how much i think i'd get a caller out of. say you are playing very aggressive player who does this on the bb and you called utg with aq. i bet you would be thinking about calling to see a flop.say that flop comes q high are you likely to fold to a bet,unlikely i think. this only works with really works with qs and above or ak lower cards are slghtly different. the real trick is working out how much to bet to get 1 or maybe 2 callers to make the pot safer to play but more profitable,and that is determined by your table image and situation. say you are a small stack in the bb vs a few big stack callers .the all in looks like a steal and your likely to get at least 1 caller ,so again at least as profitable as a slow play but much safer. i agree with mr vs comments about throwing aces away if you need to but i think that not raising is leaving you more open to losses later in the hand . not making anything out of the hand is surely as you want to make as much out of a large hand as possible say you flat call pre flop ,the only cards that are really good for you on the flop are another ace (2 outs)or 3 suited cards(also unlikely) to your ace,other than that you can't be sure of the strength of anybody elses holding at all and how good you are. what do you do check and fold to any bet on the flop, or call a smallish bet . say you call your still none the wiser about how good their holding really is and you get to the turn ,what now? again your in the dark. if you bet on the flop and you get any caller your in the dark again and another bet on the turn looks dangerous . playing this way just seems to leave you totally out of the hand and is a real waste of a really good opportunity to make a lot of chips.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. just thought of something else intresting regarding timing. would you rather lose a 30xbb loss at 15/30 or at 100/200:eek. you can come back from this sort of hand at the start if it does go wrong because one of you going all in is less likely ,but later on this sort of loss will probably take you out. so i really dont understand why you would be worried about playing a quality hand at the start when its less likely to take you out than midway through.

[Valiant23]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions.

just thought of something else intresting regarding timing. would you rather lose a 30xbb loss at 15/30 or at 100/200:eek. you can come back from this sort of hand at the start if it does go wrong because one of you going all in is less likely ,but later on this sort of loss will probably take you out. so i really dont understand why you would be worried about playing a quality hand at the start when its less likely to take you out than midway through.

This is exactly my point regarding getting callers with suited (for example) rags hoping to hit the flop hard. I'm not saying that I do that every time. In fact I'd say that I only do it occasionally. I'm not saying that I wouldn't be prepared to take someone on if they pushed all in either. The thing is we can only get to be better players if we consider 'thinking outside the box' occasionally.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Hornet's Strategy Questions. yeah definately you have to be open to new ideas if not you play 1 way and become to easy to read. i was just trying to illustrate that by the varying ways i tend to play in each specific situation . even in a unusual 1 off situation like this there could be 4or 5 different ways i would play it,none is the only or best way to play but thinking about what is round you and the situation should give you the best way to make the most out of it. i think this is where a lot of books/mags go wrong they say you must do this in this situation or that in another ,its never that simple you need all the info ,not just your on the bb with aa so you must do this.