Big Time Tourney Strategy

[robilaruk]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy you must call, otherwise why limp to hit a str/flush draw Damo

glceud 6s 7s calls (11000+ chips) I'm going to assume nobody minds the limp with suited connectors on the button in a multiway pot flop As 10s 6h glceud flops bottom pair and a flush draw What now? I will get to my main point after this hand:eek

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy only got the flush draw. Jesus I didnt put my tourney on the line with the nuts and now you want me to do it with a small flush draw. I take it the call rather than the 4000 reraise is your play?

[GaF]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy I find the second hand so much tougher.... No issues with the limp, and the flop is what you want to hit ...... BUT you have a bet and a raise before you ...... you COULD be all but drawing dead - hitting the flush could bust you if there's a bigger one out there.... I don't want to raise, because that gives two players the chance to reraise me, rather than 1 ..... to be honest I dont even particularly like the call - I'm worried player 5 will raise again.... It's incredibly weak, but I think I fold ... I dont like it .... :unsure I think that's probably the wrong thing to do too ..... but I'm just too uncomfortable with the hand to keep going.... PS Damo was talking about the first hand ;)

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

If you keep the pot small and dont bet big enough' date=' then you are not giving your opponent the opportunity to make an error .....[/quote'] My experience of 10,000 chip deep stack live tourneys is limited (1 to be exact !) - but I have to agree with GaF and Slap, you'd keep the pot small when you need to catch up, OR your believe your opponent is drawing extremley thin and your willing to take the (reduced) risk to suck him for as many chips as possible. If the opponent was drawing - which I thought he was, then you can't just give him a free card ? The argument is you can only lose a tournament in the early levels, which I agree with, but you can't let situations like this pass you by. Just to turn this argument on its head a little, what would you have done in his opponents seat holding AA and watching the betting unfold as it did. PS - I must agree with Brian on one point, this is a good thread :ok

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

Ok lets forget about that hand and move on two later, with me on the button player 4 sb calls player 5 bb checks player 6 calls player 7 folds player 8 calls player 9 calls player 10 calls player 1 folds player 2 calls glceud 6s 7s calls (11000+ chips) I'm going to assume nobody minds the limp with suited connectors on the button in a multiway pot flop As 10s 6h player 4 checks player 5 bets 200 player 6 raises to 600 player 8 folds player 9 folds player 10 folds player 2 folds glceud flops bottom pair and a flush draw What now? I will get to my main point after this hand:eek

Call for 600

[robilaruk]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy LOL with trip Kings make it 3K to go with the flush draw and bottom pair call and see the turn hope this clarifies things:ok Damo

only got the flush draw. Jesus I didnt put my tourney on the line with the nuts and now you want me to do it with a small flush draw. I take it the call rather than the 4000 reraise is your play?

[Valiant23]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy glc, I'm sorry. I completely misread your post. :$ I've dusted off my dummy and its back in the pram. The point (earlier) I was trying to make was that a significantly good player should be able to get away from hands - as you proved when the flush hit the board. Regards the flush... I have to say thats as good as it gets really and I'd be happy to pay for the draw (at least one more card). Personally I'd play passively here.

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy With the pair of aces I would have bet after that wimp glceud checked the turn

[AJ]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

Thats fair enough if you had unlimited ammount of £1000 buy in tournies to play and an unlmited time to do so, which brings us back to playing with scared money. I just cant see the need to risk my tourney on even a one to three on shot when I still have over a 100 bbs in my stack, which is why I called hoping for anything other than a heart on the turn. If it hadnt been a heart I would have busted him on the turn, although he did tell me afterwords I could have done so on the flop.

Then for me, you are playing simply for the experience of being in the tourney, you are not playing to win. At some point you are going to have to risk your tourney, if you think you'll get better odds later fine. I'd much rather risk my tourney when I was a 80% fav in the first hand, than take a 50/50 chance on day three.

[gavham]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy I am confused this raises so much discussion, there is nothing complicated about either hand the first hand you push and hard ,when the heart comes out of course you must slow down simple as that. the second call to hopefully see the next card, a fold here is incredibly weak play you are getting the odds and great implied odds so i dont see the problem. Gl i remember a cash hand i played some time ago where i had 10 10 and called a raise and a re raise pre flop ,10 was the highest card on the flop and i went all in for a lot of money, got a call from kk and i doubled through, if you recall you told me i played it wrong ( not maximising my winnings) but as i said at the time better to win a smallish pot than lose a monster. As for being "scared" if thats the case your in the wrong game. i do understand the fear factor with playing bigger games/tourneys but the minute the game starts you should be able to hit the auto pilot button. I think you put that first hand on here because you are annoyed with yourself as you clearly know you made a hash of it and missed a great opportunity to double up. That could have settled the nerves and would alter how you play the second hand as you can now afford to fish.

[BAM]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

Interesting - If I put my opponent on a draw, then I view it as even more essential to bet big - big enough that if he calls, he is making a mistake and has negative expectation.... by betting I control the odds he is offered .... if he has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting, then if I offer him 2-1, it is break even expectation for us both if he calls (ignoring any implied odds) - to allow him to make a mistake, I have to bet big enough that he has less than 2-1 .... the shorter the odds he calls with (i.e. the bigger my bet) in his draw, the bigger his mistake in calling. Of course I also have fold equity which adds to the value of a big bet (and against that, I'm offering implied odds, but I'm offering them anyway....) If you keep the pot small and dont bet big enough, then you are not giving your opponent the opportunity to make an error .....

True :ok I 100% agree in most tourneys we play and maybe later on in this tourney, I would do the same thing but in this situation I may see how the hand develops because there is that 30% I'm going to bust out

I'm not going to stop raising until he stops raising or I run out of chips.

Again I would do the same in a different situation or later in the same tourney. I understand the math but sometimes you have to put that to one side and think more about your strategy for a 4 day tourney, it is totally different to a 4 hour tourney and I guess this is the point Glceud is trying to make. On the flip side of the math you could say, he has around a 30% chance of being outdrawn, if he makes the same move 3 times in this tourney there is a good chance he will have no chips left.

PS - I must agree with Brian on one point, this is a good thread :ok

Glad we agree on something Martyn :lol yes it is a great thread and one that wouldn't work without two sides to the debate, I find this type of thread fascinating :ok

Then for me, you are playing simply for the experience of being in the tourney, you are not playing to win.

I dont think he is saying that at all AJ, it is a thread about how to adopt your strategy for this type of tourney.

I am confused

:rollin you just stick to cash mate ;)

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Aj, There is of course no way on knowing that you are an 80% fav after the flop. I was however, trying to get as many chips into the pot and I decided flat calling the raise was my best option. I really didnt want to take the pot down there and then, I wanted a bigger pot. To move onto the second hand I fell into GaFs train of thought and folded through fear of a reraise from player 5. Of course if I had doubled up with the kings I would have called immediately as calling for potentionally 50% of my stack is a lot easier than calling for a potential 100% The turn card was the 7h and both players bet big again. the river was the 7d which would have given me the full house. Both players bet big again and of course If i was still in the pot I would have pushed them both allin. player 5 had pkt 6's for a smaller boat and player 6 had a/10 for top 2 pair. Which brings me to the real point of posting these two hands. How should you play the first 2 levels of a deepstacked long level tourney? I am begining to think you should write of 20% to 30% as a "gambling investment". Basically see any cheap flop in late position with any 2 cards and try and get into pots in early position with very marginal hands with the option to fold if any big action after you act. obviousley if you do hit the hands you can carry on "investing" the same percentage related to your stack as the levels increase. I dont think I, or any one on here has any problems with play later in the tourney(apart from bubble fear factor) once average chip stacks are down to less than 50 bbs we are a basically playing what we are used to online.

[BAM]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

Ok lets forget about that hand and move on two later, with me on the button player 4 sb calls player 5 bb checks player 6 calls player 7 folds player 8 calls player 9 calls player 10 calls player 1 folds player 2 calls glceud 6s 7s calls (11000+ chips) I'm going to assume nobody minds the limp with suited connectors on the button in a multiway pot flop As 10s 6h player 4 checks player 5 bets 200 player 6 raises to 600 player 8 folds player 9 folds player 10 folds player 2 folds glceud flops bottom pair and a flush draw What now? I will get to my main point after this hand:eek

I dont like this one at all, I would look at it and say I wouldn't have been in the pot if I didn't have the button and now I the raise is too much for me to carry on especially with player 5 to act who for all we know could re-raise. FOLD

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

I think you put that first hand on here because you are annoyed with yourself as you clearly know you made a hash of it and missed a great opportunity to double up. That could have settled the nerves and would alter how you play the second hand as you can now afford to fish.

I think you managed to read between all the lines there Mole. I do however stand by my KK play and just think I was slightly unfortunate the way the hand played out, but it was a gamble I was prepared to take. Its funny how the similer this is to your pkt 10's hand, knew it would come back to haunt me some day.

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Finally got over this sequence of hands. If I had played the first hand correctly and knocked the other guy out there would have been some applause, hand shaking etc and the time delay would have lead to the dealer shuffling up in a totally different manner so the second hand would not have happened. Even if he had sorted the cards in exactly the same manner we would have all got different ones as there would have been one less player at the table. Any way just a quick refresher for the mole as to how not to play a deep stacked live tourney.