GaF Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Anyone else want to share their most profitable and most expensive starting hands according to Poker Tracker? (and how many hands, so we know how significant it is) I'm just restarting cash games at laddies (10c/20c), unprofitably at the moment I confess (I am probably too "tuned" to MTTs at the moment ;) ), so have started a new DB, so nowhere near significant yet......... 1122 hands in my database. Most Profitable 86s ... 8.13 BB/Hand TT ... 6.56 BB/Hand AKo ... 5.87 BB/Hand JJ ... 4.89 BB/Hand AKs ... 4.89 BB/Hand Most Expensive AA ... (19.54) BB/Hand 66 ... (15.60) BB/Hand AJs ... (13.53) BB/Hand QQ ... (10.25) BB/Hand KK ... (10.18) BB/Hand Am a bit shocked that it's the big hands that are costing me - for the moment I'm happy to put it down to short run variance (erm - "Bad Luck"), but I need to keep an eye on it and if it doesn't improve, then it's down to the way I'm playing them!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? 1122 is a very small sample, but useful for looking at trends, I'm surprised that AA is costing you, perhaps you need more agression and slow play it less I'd have thought AQo would be up there, as it often quoted as the hand most people lose with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 27, 2006 Author Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? I think AA is there because of the small numbers - as you say it is VERY small, and NO significance at all can be put on it yet (main reason for putting mine up, even though insignificant) was to hopefully encourage others to put theirs up - I'll update mine when it is more significant :ok I don't slow play AA, especially at this level - you can bet 5xBB and still be confident of callers ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? if its the 3 top PP that are costing you, then perhaps it is more to how you play them rather than variance? the AJs and 66 is not a suprise - they are weak starting hands in cash - but you should be doing better with AA-QQ. Does PT show what you lost to with them? that would help to discuss in more detail Cheers Damo Anyone else want to share their most profitable and most Most Expensive AA ... (19.54) BB/Hand 66 ... (15.60) BB/Hand AJs ... (13.53) BB/Hand QQ ... (10.25) BB/Hand KK ... (10.18) BB/Hand Am a bit shocked that it's the big hands that are costing me - for the moment I'm happy to put it down to short run variance (erm - "Bad Luck"), but I need to keep an eye on it and if it doesn't improve, then it's down to the way I'm playing them!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 27, 2006 Author Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Yes I can get the Hand Histories (and will do once I'm knocked out of a few things)..... I really dont place too much significance on it after so few hands though ...... Noone else their PokerTracker stats? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 27, 2006 Share Posted December 27, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? a-ha you answered my question before i even asked it! :) maybe then raise 8XBB? Just a thought! have noticed similar on betfair (6 handed tables .05/.10c cash) you raise to 40c and get 3 callers, you raise to 60C and get 2 callers - so I have been raising half my stack or so (normally about a $1 or so that way I only get 1 caller:hope :hope ) with AA KK QQ and AK - with the shove for the rest of my cash on the flop regardless:hope :hope :hope Damo I don't slow play AA, especially at this level - you can bet 5xBB and still be confident of callers ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? the AJs and 66 is not a suprise - they are weak starting hands in cash - but you should be doing better with AA-QQ. AA followed by KK should be your 2 most profitable hands, sounds obvious but thats the way it is. If theyre not then A - You either havent played enough hands yet or B - Youre playing them bad It really is that simple. QQ should possibly be right up there also. Basically Gaf you aint played enough hands cos you can tell this by 86s being top wtf :lol I agree AJ aint shit in a cash game but disagree on the pocket pair (specifically quoted as 66). If youre playing good deep stacked poker then every pocket pair should be a nice winner for you. Heres mine for a wee look, let me drag up my top dozen of net earning hands... AA, KK, AKo, TT, QQ, 88, 22, 33, 99, AQs, AQo, 66 Its over 112K hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Also I notice that your bb/hand figures are very large for and against. It really just is because you havent played a big enough sample of hands for it all to smooth over. Forgot about the hands I have lost most on. They are, in order of shiteness... 87s, J7o, AJo, A6o, 94o, J6o, 92o, K3o, 74o, J3o. Disregard all the offsuit crap, its just hands ive been dealt a bit more than others in the blinds resulting in lost blinds really. The only significant ones to look at there are 87s and AJo. 87s has just been my unlucky hand really, I can remember some very big pots that I have lost with it, I just never seem to win with it so thats why thats at the bottom. AJo is a problem though, Im probably just playing it too much and not laying it down enough even though I know its a shite hand. I remember getting stacked on it 1 hand where I was pretty sure I was beat but went with it anyway but ive learnt from that one (was quite a while ago) and that single hand has led it to it being that low really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? 2511 Hands Best AA 8.1 BB/Per hand AKs 4.45 TT 3.33 77 3.1 A2s 2.68 Worst KJs -6.78 54s -5.65 QJs -3.07 86s -1.84 76s -1.82 I'm not liking the fact that the suited connectors are my most expensive - maybe that's something I can focus on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Nice one Guys - Mr M - looking grat - and as it should :ok Cloud - like me, your sample is very small, so cant read anything into it yet, but you want to keep an eye on those suited connectors... I will post up all my AA hands shortly (Jeez I hope I played them properly :unsure) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Worst KJs -6.78 54s -5.65 QJs -3.07 86s -1.84 76s -1.82 I'm not liking the fact that the suited connectors are my most expensive - maybe that's something I can focus on. Yeah keep a check on that Cloud, there could well be something in it as it is odd that they are all suited connector hands. Id say its aproaching likely that there is something siginificant in that. Cant be sure though yet. Your best hands are looking good though. I will post up all my AA hands shortly (Jeez I hope I played them properly :unsure) Post up the monstrosities Gaf, you know like ones where the board is KKQQJ and you just couldnt fold :lol I joke of course. Yeah post up some of the hands you got stacked on with AA and we can have a look at those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? I do have trouble laying Aces down - which is why I have to play them so aggressively!!!! Don't pull your punches - I need to learn!!! (I'll just post them for the moment - then read them afterwards - so no filtering at all from me..... ** Game ID 650802070 starting - 2006-12-27 15:39:57 ** Atlas [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - jens_dog sitting in seat 1 with $18.31 - Skinteastwd sitting in seat 2 with $12.55 - raevliga sitting in seat 3 with $9.60 - wildchild1 sitting in seat 4 with $20.00 - curlychew sitting in seat 5 with $10.56 - LooseLarry sitting in seat 6 with $9.60 - Legolars30 sitting in seat 7 with $40.67 - PaQuit sitting in seat 8 with $25.24 - Telepe sitting in seat 9 with $19.70 [Dealer] - guraster sitting in seat 10 with $20.13 guraster posted the small blind - $0.10 jens_dog posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Diamonds, Ace of Hearts Skinteastwd folded raevliga folded wildchild1 called - $0.20 curlychew called - $0.20 LooseLarry raised - $0.80 Legolars30 folded PaQuit folded Telepe raised - $2.80 guraster folded jens_dog folded wildchild1 folded curlychew folded LooseLarry called - $2.80 ** Dealing the flop: 4 of Spades, 6 of Clubs, 6 of Diamonds LooseLarry bet - $3.15 Telepe raised - $7.87 LooseLarry went all-in - $3.65 ** Dealing the turn: 8 of Spades ** Dealing the river: 4 of Clubs LooseLarry shows: 10 of Diamonds, Ace of Spades Telepe shows: Ace of Diamonds, Ace of Hearts Telepe wins $18.95 from the main pot End of game 650802070 ** Game ID 650547559 starting - 2006-12-27 01:07:09 ** Fazer [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - forbeees sitting in seat 1 with $5.67 - Legolars30 sitting in seat 2 with $10.00 [sitting out] - dontbother sitting in seat 3 with $17.02 - Clagstar sitting in seat 4 with $7.36 - Telepe sitting in seat 5 with $30.05 - elbo sitting in seat 6 with $43.82 - Jonn sitting in seat 7 with $18.51 - mufinthemule sitting in seat 9 with $31.16 [Dealer] - twinnie777 sitting in seat 10 with $20.08 twinnie777 posted the small blind - $0.10 forbeees posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Clubs, Ace of Diamonds dontbother folded Clagstar folded Telepe raised - $0.80 elbo folded Jonn folded mufinthemule called - $0.80 twinnie777 called - $0.80 forbeees folded ** Dealing the flop: 9 of Hearts, Jack of Spades, King of Diamonds twinnie777 checked Telepe bet - $2.60 mufinthemule went all-in - $30.36 twinnie777 folded Telepe went all-in - $26.65 ** Dealing the turn: 10 of Clubs ** Dealing the river: 7 of Spades Telepe shows: Ace of Clubs, Ace of Diamonds mufinthemule shows: Jack of Diamonds, Jack of Clubs mufinthemule wins $58.10 from the main pot End of game 650547559 ** Game ID 650536796 starting - 2006-12-27 00:49:26 ** Gold Star [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - snowsoul sitting in seat 1 with $41.76 - enok52 sitting in seat 2 with $2.70 - eccos sitting in seat 3 with $21.37 [Dealer] - Telepe sitting in seat 4 with $21.96 - Grumpius sitting in seat 5 with $38.62 - AKcoxy sitting in seat 6 with $5.08 - cenqiiz sitting in seat 7 with $3.83 - stephen8 sitting in seat 8 with $21.50 - fengmann sitting in seat 9 with $19.32 [sitting out] - Bobby1874 sitting in seat 10 with $18.05 Telepe posted the small blind - $0.10 Grumpius posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Hearts, Ace of Diamonds AKcoxy folded cenqiiz called - $0.20 stephen8 called - $0.20 Bobby1874 folded snowsoul folded enok52 folded eccos called - $0.20 Telepe raised - $1.00 Grumpius folded cenqiiz folded stephen8 folded eccos called - $1.00 ** Dealing the flop: King of Diamonds, 8 of Spades, 10 of Spades Telepe checked eccos checked ** Dealing the turn: King of Hearts Telepe bet - $1.30 eccos called - $1.30 ** Dealing the river: King of Spades Telepe bet - $2.60 eccos raised - $13.00 Telepe called - $13.00 eccos shows: 8 of Clubs, King of Clubs Telepe mucks: eccos wins $29.65 from the main pot End of game 650536796 ** Game ID 650519860 starting - 2006-12-27 00:23:52 ** Eliminator [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - Hunter111 sitting in seat 1 with $36.83 - Telepe sitting in seat 2 with $22.75 - MAC_No1 sitting in seat 3 with $20.00 - kevinolive sitting in seat 5 with $25.45 - ProSwoop sitting in seat 6 with $7.80 - Dogface1973 sitting in seat 7 with $17.56 - shasharankin sitting in seat 8 with $11.03 [Dealer] - triple333 sitting in seat 9 with $22.24 - fengmann sitting in seat 10 with $38.47 triple333 posted the small blind - $0.10 fengmann posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Diamonds, Ace of Hearts Hunter111 folded Telepe raised - $0.80 MAC_No1 folded kevinolive called - $0.80 ProSwoop called - $0.80 Dogface1973 folded shasharankin called - $0.80 triple333 folded fengmann folded ** Dealing the flop: Jack of Clubs, King of Spades, 3 of Diamonds Telepe bet - $1.75 kevinolive called - $1.75 ProSwoop called - $1.75 shasharankin folded ** Dealing the turn: 10 of Spades Telepe bet - $4.37 kevinolive called - $4.37 ProSwoop went all-in - $5.25 Telepe called - $5.25 kevinolive called - $5.25 ** Dealing the river: 4 of Spades Telepe checked kevinolive checked ProSwoop shows: Jack of Hearts, 10 of Hearts Telepe mucks: kevinolive mucks: ProSwoop wins $23.30 from the main pot End of game 650519860 ** Game ID 650518526 starting - 2006-12-27 00:21:46 ** Daytona [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - AddictiveM sitting in seat 1 with $15.42 - fengmann sitting in seat 2 with $35.86 - ----mikey--- sitting in seat 3 with $49.25 - doddgy sitting in seat 4 with $13.20 - billyg05 sitting in seat 5 with $6.01 - peaquad sitting in seat 6 with $17.80 - richbaggie68 sitting in seat 8 with $10.77 - maryanne1 sitting in seat 9 with $17.57 [Dealer] - Telepe sitting in seat 10 with $22.44 Telepe posted the small blind - $0.10 AddictiveM posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Diamonds, Ace of Clubs fengmann folded ----mikey--- folded doddgy called - $0.20 billyg05 called - $0.20 peaquad called - $0.20 richbaggie68 folded maryanne1 folded Telepe raised - $0.70 AddictiveM folded doddgy called - $0.70 billyg05 called - $0.70 peaquad called - $0.70 ** Dealing the flop: 8 of Spades, Jack of Spades, Ace of Hearts Telepe bet - $1.50 doddgy folded billyg05 folded peaquad called - $1.50 ** Dealing the turn: 10 of Diamonds Telepe bet - $3.00 peaquad called - $3.00 ** Dealing the river: King of Hearts Telepe checked peaquad went all-in - $12.60 Telepe folded peaquad mucks: peaquad wins $24.00 from the main pot End of game 650518526 ** Game ID 649883691 starting - 2006-12-26 00:15:49 ** Comet [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - djRoot sitting in seat 1 with $18.36 - Telepe sitting in seat 2 with $19.40 - pod1234 sitting in seat 3 with $11.21 [Dealer] - dormouse99 sitting in seat 4 with $32.55 - urjant sitting in seat 5 with $2.02 - Maurice80 sitting in seat 6 with $20.17 - gunsnbooze sitting in seat 7 with $6.90 - jd-for-me sitting in seat 9 with $2.90 - domedosser sitting in seat 10 with $17.55 dormouse99 posted the small blind - $0.10 urjant posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Spades, Ace of Clubs Maurice80 folded gunsnbooze folded jd-for-me folded domedosser folded djRoot folded Telepe raised - $0.80 pod1234 folded dormouse99 folded urjant called - $0.80 ** Dealing the flop: 7 of Hearts, 2 of Clubs, Jack of Diamonds urjant bet - $0.20 Telepe raised - $0.80 urjant went all-in - $1.22 Telepe called - $1.42 ** Dealing the turn: 8 of Spades ** Dealing the river: 5 of Diamonds urjant shows: Jack of Spades, 9 of Spades Telepe shows: Ace of Spades, Ace of Clubs Telepe wins $4.32 from the main pot End of game 649883691 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Hand 1 - I won it - the other guy is a complete Muppet!!! I'm happy!! Hand 2 - Up against flopped tripped jacks - tricky to see? He maxes a MASSIVE overbet - 30 times the pot - surely he's not looking for a call with a bet like that? Trips not the only danger - QT beats me too (obviously 2 pair too) - but I struggle to get away from this, despite loads of hands beating me!!!! Hand 3 - Had a call from K8o and he flops 2 pair - Not a dangerous flop for me against one opponent? The paired king on the board is dangerous. The rivered king convinces me I'm ahead!! I'm impressed that I flat called his raise and didn't reraise!!!! Hand 4 - Again - my pre flop raise called by JTs who flops a pair and turns 2 pair - I'm happy with the way I played this I think...... Hand 5 - Flopped trip A's, but folded the river when a Q gives a str8 to beat me - too weak? I think it was a reasonable laydown..... Hand 6 - Won the hand against another muppet caller!!!! Looking at this, I'm even more convinced I'm playing them ok ? :unsure I played them aggressively pre flop - lacked aggression after the flop (but some disguise is good isn't it? No I don't think so either - I need to bet the flop harder) - I think it's just short run variance (er .... bad luck :tongue2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Ok hand by hand as I look at them... Hand 1 Textbook play, love it. Hand 2 Ok you came in from early for 4bb which is fine a lot of the time....but id make it 5bb (obv only minor thing) but I dont think anyone at low limits really folds anything for 5bb that they would call for 4bb. And preflop is where you want to get as much as poss in with AA. And if there are cases they do, well then it just helps you to get HU in a pot (espesh when OOP). Hmm tough spot after your correct pot bet. I think this has to just about be a call on a 2 to a flush board but on a rainbow board it is much more dodgy as it takes a fair element of the semibluff out of it. But to be fair I mean he could be making a move with a pair and a gutshot something like KQ or K10. Its just a tough spot and we could discuss it more I guess but it certainly isnt an awful call or anything of the sort. Hand 3 A note on preflop here (as it turned out it worked out ok for you this time). From the SB (OOP against anyone) I really think a bigger raise is in order here. Id raise to 7bb or 8bb here to really try and get it HU. With 3 limpers it really wouldnt suprise me on another day for them all to call this raise which would really suck (this especially may happen if the first limper called). So imo you defo need to raise more in these situations....even though it didnt affect this particular hand. You must bet this flop really (or were you planning to checkraise? thats not the worst play in the world). Theres draws a plenty and top pair possibilities, still not a very nice flop to see though. After the flop I think you played it absolutely fine, that river card is just an awful awful card for you, I mean youre only losing to the quads! Hand 4 Crap flop again with 2 pictures, bad turn too. After they both flat call you on the flop its very dodgy with no flush draw out. But again its just a tough spot really. Hand 5 Ok BIG mistake here preflop, shocking raise really just asking to be outdrawn...ive discussed previously the play here. If you take a look at the preflop action, this guy was the last to call...maybe he never woulda been in the hand with a big raise. Nice flop though! Flop bets not bad I guess with the nuts, maybe a wee bit more would be good as there is flush/straight draws and importantly 3 players to have picked up something. You never checked though which is good. Ok the turn...gota pot it (or close to it) there, possible 2 pair he just picked up there and now more straight draws, flush draw very possible as he called flop. Youre only behind vs a gutshot that hit (pretty unlikely) so no need to be cautious. The rivers a piece of shit it really is, any K, Q or 9 sucks and the King hits. I think a check fold is fine there, although it is possible you are being bluffed but its a horrible river. Hand 6 no comments required its not a big deal really is it :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Another 2 AA tongiht :puke :puke ** Game ID 652077328 starting - 2006-12-29 00:42:10 ** Black Shadow [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - haimbow sitting in seat 1 with $8.33 [Dealer] - j8lbc sitting in seat 2 with $9.22 - MAC_No1 sitting in seat 3 with $19.28 - djavolakos sitting in seat 4 with $21.00 - Koxi82 sitting in seat 5 with $30.70 - Skinteastwd sitting in seat 6 with $12.42 - BOBAR sitting in seat 7 with $11.87 - KashaBaby sitting in seat 8 with $6.81 - Telepe sitting in seat 9 with $25.51 - MadMing sitting in seat 10 with $11.20 [sitting out] j8lbc posted the small blind - $0.10 MAC_No1 posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Clubs, Ace of Hearts djavolakos folded Koxi82 called - $0.20 Skinteastwd folded BOBAR called - $0.20 KashaBaby folded Telepe raised - $1.20 haimbow called - $1.20 j8lbc folded MAC_No1 folded Koxi82 folded BOBAR folded ** Dealing the flop: 4 of Hearts, 2 of Diamonds, 2 of Hearts Telepe bet - $3.10 haimbow called - $3.10 ** Dealing the turn: 10 of Hearts Telepe bet - $9.30 haimbow went all-in - $4.03 ** Dealing the river: 5 of Clubs Telepe shows: Ace of Clubs, Ace of Hearts haimbow shows: Queen of Hearts, King of Hearts haimbow wins $16.51 from the main pot End of game 652077328 ** Game ID 652075318 starting - 2006-12-29 00:39:01 ** Gold Star [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money - Telepe sitting in seat 3 with $28.61 [Dealer] - CDBDii sitting in seat 4 with $46.65 - _sharpspear_ sitting in seat 5 with $4.60 - _Mr_G_ sitting in seat 6 with $17.47 - rosie_m sitting in seat 7 with $7.35 - Bigskins sitting in seat 8 with $5.25 - dormouse99 sitting in seat 9 with $16.56 CDBDii posted the small blind - $0.10 _sharpspear_ posted the big blind - $0.20 ** Dealing card to Telepe: Ace of Diamonds, Ace of Clubs _Mr_G_ folded rosie_m folded Bigskins folded dormouse99 folded Telepe raised - $0.80 CDBDii folded _sharpspear_ folded Telepe mucks: Ace of Diamonds, Ace of Clubs Telepe mucks: Telepe wins $1.10 from the main pot End of game 652075318 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Cheers for your comments Mr M :ok I get the impression that the difference between us is how much to raise pre flop - I typically want to raise 4x to 5x BB - in general I dont like raising more than 5xBB with anything that is unraised and with AA I feel I ought to be raising less to encourage some action ....... however I think you may be right - I need to get it down to fewer opponents and because it's a low level, I maybe need to raise more...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? I get the impression that the difference between us is how much to raise pre flop A fair bit of it yeah, a couple of problems you had in your hands directly stemmed from not betting enough preflop, you make your decisions easier by playing as I advised. Its optimal too trust me on this one I win way more with AA than any other hand (over twice as much earned net with AA than my second net earning hand KK). I typically want to raise 4x to 5x BB - in general I dont like raising more than 5xBB with anything that is unraised No problems with that there in a way, but I would say an uncontested pot is the time to raise with 4/5bb (one where it has been folded to you). If there is limpers you MUST increase your raise. A very good guide for you with AA, KK, QQ would be just to add 1bb for every limper there is on top of your standard 4bb opening raise if thats what youre comfortable with (imo id open for 5bb first in). Its especially key when your in the blinds, you REALLY want to get it HU when your in the blinds with a big pair, I cant emphasis that enough. and with AA I feel I ought to be raising less to encourage some action Do not worry about this in a cash game. I just had a quick check for a PT stat there from mine and I get called preflop raising in this sort of way with AA 71% of the time, which is a pretty good % imo, it certainly doesnt discourage action as you can see. I suspect that at 0.10/0.20 stakes you will get called even more than this too. Oh and those 2 new hands (why did you bother with Hand 8 hehe) but you played spot on in hand 7, just got outdrawn. You are definitely getting outdrawn more than you should so far and also running into some dodgy flops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x3m Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? that`s the thread I really like :ok very useful information forum should have more threads like this one GaF, mrmuzeman :clap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? I am surprised people say that your best hands should be AA and KK. OK yes they are the best starting hands available but at the end of the day they are just a PP. If you dont hit after the flop then its obvious sometimes you will be behind or people will catch when chasing striaghts and flushes. I am aggressive when playing AA and find that it is my worst hand. I think it is the same problem as a lot of people you have to be prepared to lay it down. Check your stats of what your best winning hands are. I bet 1 pair is not your best hand so why would AA win for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Posting this before reading anyone else's comments, and God knows my cash games aren't my strong points... but things which jump out. Hand 2: GaF?, what the hell do you put him on here?! After the flop, when he shoves, there's AK which he could realistically have that you're ahead of... MAYBE QQ if he's a maniac (I.e. I'd probably make the play he does... ) Hand 4: WEAK!!! I know I slowplay the big hands, but a raise of only 4xBB from early position, and then a bet of half the pot with 4 people in on the flop? You want to be playing AA heads-up, don't you? Hand 5: Again, you want to be playing this heads-up. 3.5xBB with 3 callers?! Wasn't it you who said to me the other day standard raise was 3xBB plus 1xBB for each limper?! Once you get to the flop, you have trips but are still vulnerable to draws... I'm betting about the size of the pot here, personally, maybe JUST below. Not trying to slam your play completely, obviously - I'm sure your cash game is a damn sight better than mine, but they stood out as mistakes to me, mate. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Oh, having seen your play on hand 7, I like the pre-flop and post-flop play MUCH more there :) :clap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? I am surprised people say that your best hands should be AA and KK. OK yes they are the best starting hands available but at the end of the day they are just a PP. If you dont hit after the flop then its obvious sometimes you will be behind or people will catch when chasing striaghts and flushes. Poker is a race. Having the best starting hand does NOT give you a divine right to win the race, but it does give you a head start. AA gives you the biggest head start, followed by KK. Anything else gives you less of a head start and is at a disadvantage. I cannot see what the argument is against AA and KK being the best hands? Sure if they dont improve they're weak and vulnerable, but they are the best starting hands (as you say). If they dont improve then they will certainly not be (even close to) the nuts after the river!!!! I don't think anyone is suggesting that AA and KK are the best hands once the flop has been dealt :unsure Not sure if I am missing your point here..... Hand 2: GaF?' date=' what the hell do you put him on here?![/quote'] A complete bluff - it's just such a ridiculous bet (and people at this level DO bluff like that!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? My point is Gaf. The reason people lose more money with AA than any other hand is because they think they cant be beaten. They dont look at what others have got or what the flop may bring. A good player will probabaly put down AA more than I would and close to 50% of the time maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tax_Monkey Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? My best four are : K9s A8s AA K2s Worst: KJs ATs AT KT Only from 424 hands though so not reading too much into it at the moment(although AT is already looking dodgy:$) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? interestingly I have had a good run recently with AA. I am currently playing $0.50/$1.00 on Prima. I have played 1843 hands and I am in profit by $750. My best 5 hands are AA 10 hands won $152.59. (Including 1 whilst typing this) T9s 8 hands won $99.90 T8 16 hands won $77.13 86s 4 hands won 74.22 QQ 8 hands won $71.18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? My worst 5 hands are J9 22 hands lost $33 A8 20 hands lost $23 A4 19 hands lost $19 87 16 hands lost $17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Best hands taking won per hand into account are. AA $15.26 per hand A10s $13.67 per hand 109s $12.49 per hand T6s $9.57 per hand AQs $9.48 per hand I take back everything I said about AA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? :lol Good man Staffy! Im glad you take it back cos youre comments before would be 100% dead wrong to argue AA shouldnt be your biggest winning hand IF you play well. Sure if you dont play them well they can cost you bigtime but if youre a good player the best hands come out on top in full ring games. I have a friend who has been an online pro for a few years does really well for himself, mainly full ring cash. He has well over 1 million hands in his pokertracker and his top 3 earning hands are AA, KK, QQ - in that order, it is no coincidence, it is impossible to argue against the stats. His stats on the starting hands are smooth as an eel when you look over them cos hes played so many hands and luck evened itself out over time. AA is a 75%-95% (roughly) favourite to win against ANY hand heads up after all cards are out, therefore if you get it heads up preflop most of the time your gona be a big winner with it if youre a good player, simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? Hand 1 - like the decent reraise PF and easy shove on the flop with so short cash hand 2 - you raise the standard - make it more (when in doubt bet more etc..... ;) ) flop - what are calling with? and what are you beating? what do folks call PF raises with - any PP and any 2 broadway - save you money and fold - if you had $5 left then an easy call hoping he had AK, but not for that amount. hand 3 - after 2 limpers make it more - say $2.00 or so and hope that cenqizz shoves for his last couple of $2 and you can either call/reriase AI to isolate - suprised you checked the flop - make a pot bet and hope he has KQ etc - turn now what?? has he a King? river - I can't blame you for calling, I mean there is only one K left - but after his call on the turn then I would be worried hand 4 - I have only read to the turn card - you raise 4 BB and get 3 callers (note to self bet more!) - 2 broadway on the flop make a half pot bet and get 2 callers - another brodway card on the turn I am check folding here (maybe a call for a small bet) - people like any 2 broadway okay have now read the rest - could you not have reriased after the shortie shoved? (I know sometimes you can't....) can't fault the check on the end hand 5 - 3 limpers and you raise only 50c more? they are all calling for pot odds - this is a GREAT time to make it $2 or $3 and get one of them to call with their limpy 66-88 etc hoping you have AK AQ flop - make a pot bet not half pot - thare are 2 suited cards there plus all sorts of str draws with KQ J9 Q9 9 10 etc and you just might catch your villian with 88 :) turn - I am AI now and hoping he has trips and not QK - I can't see the point in milking on such a dangerous board river - you putting him on a Q? I do find it hard to lay down trips - you only fear a Q - I would have called (and spat my dummy when he turned over Q8o......) hand 6 - standard re you next post - I don't think in all cases you play them aggressively enough, especially with limpers already in the pot - make it 10XBB raise after 3 limpers to isolate - and then make pot bets not half pot bets when you are ahead - just my thoughts Damo I do have trouble laying Aces down - which is why I have to play them so aggressively!!!! Don't pull your punches - I need to learn!!! (I'll just post them for the moment - then read them afterwards - so no filtering at all from me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Cash Games - Best and Worst starting hands? hand one - MUCH better - a more aggressive raise PF and a decent pot bet on the flop - just UL hand 2 - now I am not one to advocate slow play, but maybe raise to 45-60 c with this - you are on the button with only the blinds to go thru (yes the BB has a massive stack but hey lets take a chance) - make it look like a button steal and hope to get a caller, or better yet the BB thinks hey you are not stealing my BB and reriases you - in which case.......:clap :clap :clap Damo Another 2 AA tongiht :puke :puke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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