Valiant23 Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 2nd hand of an STT on Pokerstars. PokerStars Game #7271665015: Tournament #37187789, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/12/02 - 17:42:33 (ET) Table '37187789 1' 10-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: TROGON (1480 in chips) Seat 2: moud (1360 in chips) Seat 3: kebo1 (1880 in chips) Seat 4: rosie_all_in (900 in chips) Seat 5: Valiant23 (1480 in chips) Seat 6: CCHITMAN (1640 in chips) Seat 7: SammyMay (1800 in chips) Seat 8: TUSCARORA (1480 in chips) Seat 9: hoagsman (1480 in chips) is sitting out Seat 10: leddiumm (1500 in chips) Valiant23: posts small blind 10 CCHITMAN: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Valiant23 [9s 6s] SammyMay: calls 20 TUSCARORA: folds hoagsman: folds leddiumm: folds TROGON: calls 20 moud: folds kebo1: calls 20 rosie_all_in: calls 20 Valiant23: calls 10 CCHITMAN: checks *** FLOP *** [As 2s 7s] Valiant23: (first to act)???? Thoughts.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? You only have a mid flush ...... the danger is that you get outdrawn by a single spade (e.g. K s) - so I think you need to bet it hard to make your opponent pay for a draw to a higher heart ..... you can't give free cards.... Having said that, you are NOT that strong ..... so you're not wanting to build a big pot..... A bit of a paradox in poker (and one I struggle with) - do you make your opponents pay for their draws (i.e. bet big) or do you acknowledge your weakness and control the pot size (i.e. dont bet big) With 4 opponents, there WILL be higher spades out there - so the danger is real!! (and not that improbable that someone already has a higher made flush!!) I do hope this isn't just a bad bead thread Mr V :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted December 2, 2006 Author Share Posted December 2, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I do hope this isn't just a bad bead thread Mr V :tongue2The result isn't important! :spank :lol :lol :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? :lol :lol :lol - yeah - no need to put the result down ;) SO what do you think the right play is then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fader Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? id bet small, too many fish online will call you down hoping for the spade - thats what id do anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted December 2, 2006 Author Share Posted December 2, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? :lol :lol :lol - yeah - no need to put the result down ;) SO what do you think the right play is then?Not telling! :moon Yet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Having said that, you are NOT that strong ..... so you're not wanting to build a big pot..... A bit of a paradox in poker (and one I struggle with) - do you make your opponents pay for their draws (i.e. bet big) or do you acknowledge your weakness and control the pot size (i.e. dont bet big) Eh? How is a flopped flush not strong? Pretty strong imo. Bet 100. Makes Ks pay and top pair A will never think you have a flush and potentially raise you and at the least call. With 4 opponents, there WILL be higher spades out there - so the danger is real!! (and not that improbable that someone already has a higher made flush!!) It really is improbable enough not to worry about. Whats the chances of flopping a flush, 120/1 or summat? the 2 of you doing it, pretty unlikely really not worth worrying about tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? It really is improbable enough not to worry about. Whats the chances of flopping a flush, 120/1 or summat? the 2 of you doing it, pretty unlikely really not worth worrying about tbh. My main concern is someone holding a single, higher spade and getting the 4 flush on the board ...... Assuming an opponent holds 1 spade, there are 7 spades out there, with 2 cards to come - about 28% to hit... However, I think you're discounting the odds of someoone else having a flush too much as well ..... the odds of someone flopping a flush GIVEN that you have a 3 flush on the board will be FAR less than 120-1..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? However, I think you're discounting the odds of someoone else having a flush too much as well ..... the odds of someone flopping a flush GIVEN that you have a 3 flush on the board will be FAR less than 120-1..... Hows that work? If 2 of you hold spades it makes it even more unlikely for 3 spades to fall on the flop surely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Hows that work? If 2 of you hold spades it makes it even more unlikely for 3 spades to fall on the flop surely No - I'm saying post flop - after you KNOW that there are 3 spades on the flop (which is the position Mr V is in) - now all you're looking at is the possibility of someone holding 2 of the spades remaining in the deck.... However, agreed that the chances of this are far less significant than the threat from a single higher spade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Ok I sort of see what youre saying, its a bit bloody confusing actually working that dual flush shit out. Anyway I dont think its too important the exact stat, its still very rare there will be another made flush out there. So I think were both agreed to bet good here, about 100 I think. I dont see any other play being reasonable. A checkraise just alerts people to the strength of your hand. A check could result in every one else checking and people drawing another spade for free. A small bet could result in people drawing too cheap and not making top pairs pay you off nicely etc etc. I think a 3/4 to pot size bet is the only way to go here, pretty standard stuff imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? You only have a mid flush ...... the danger is that you get outdrawn by a single spade (e.g. K s) - so I think you need to bet it hard to make your opponent pay for a draw to a higher heart ..... you can't give free cards.... Agree on the danger, you don't want someone else with one spade limping, if another spade comes out, and they raise then you must fold. I put you ahead, but expossed to all manner of hands, high flush, or the board could pair, allowing someone to represent a boat, which you'd have to fold to Later on in the STT, I'd be inclinced to bet very hard and pickup blinds, or a single caller. Here, I'd bet 150 - 200, get rid of people on a speculative draw, but hopefully, get someone with 2 pair, or a straight draw (3, 4 ) to go with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Given that you have 2 spades and 3 spades flop, the probability of a particular opponent holding 2 spades is about 1 in 40. With 4 opponents in, that means there's around a 1 in 10 chance of somebody else having a flush. In a tournament, I don't want opponents with a high spade staying in unless I'm getting good value for it, so I'd make a pot sized bet. I'd bet a bit less in a cash game. With 3 spades on the board, everybody's going to be a bit scared (unless they have the nut flush), so I'm not going to be able to build much of a pot, and I'm happy to take the pot now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensibleboy Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I would check and hope to induce a bet from an opponent around the table. Providing this works, when it comes back round to you I would then raise pretty big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted December 3, 2006 Author Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? The fairly wide range of responses so far are very interesting, thank you! Those of you who have played against me regularly will know that I would normally muck these cards pre-flop, so my experience of these situations is very limited. I want to continue to tell the story, but I'll wait til later before I put up the next stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I would bet this out. You are almost certainly winning here at this point, but as everyone has stated above, one more spade and you are probably behind. I would lead out at least 200, maybe a little more. Much less and you could get too many callers, and will have no idea where you stand when the turn card hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I would check and hope to induce a bet from That MAY explain why you appear to get outdrawn more than others ..... you're the only person that hasn't advocated a raise, giving your (five) opponents more opportunity to outdraw you..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? bet about 150 and call the shove re-raise Damo 2nd hand of an STT on Pokerstars. Valiant23: (first to act)???? Thoughts.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I reckon in a 3$ STT a lot of players holding Qs.x or Ks.x will call any bet to the river tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spreaditabout Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Go for it, bet decent, ALL-IN next time round. If beaten, so what, thats poker but you have to make someone pay with that hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted December 3, 2006 Author Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Oops. Sorry for the delay... :$ I really couldn't believe that the flush had fallen into my lap, and so I reverted to 'type' and went back to being a calling station. :eyes So I checked. Valiant23: checks CCHITMAN: checks SammyMay: checks TROGON: bets 40 kebo1: folds rosie_all_in: folds Valiant23: calls 40 CCHITMAN: folds SammyMay: calls 40 *** TURN *** [As 2s 7s] [Qc] Again I'm first to act. I would like to comment on my state of mind during this hand, but I don't want to give anything away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Same kind of thing really. Queen is a decent enough card to come off too. The most likely hands for the 2 to have are one on a flush draw and the other with top pair so a good bet is in order. Pot is 240 I think so id bet 200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? A near pot sized bet sounds good to me :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fader Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? i would probably bet the same amount to get accross to the other players that your also on a draw, that way your not sticking TOO much into the pot to lose from a calling station with a spade AND you can make the big bet on the river look like a steal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I'd stick it all in there and then. You must be ahead and there is every chance you will get a caller at what would be shocking pot odds. Surley Fader you do want the calling station to call? Are the pot sized bets designed to help you get paid more in the long run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I'd go for a pot sized bet here as well. If he calls and hits his flush on teh river, fair enough. Win or lose isn't important, being ahead when you make the bet is. Long term it'll come good. Other option is to push and try and induce a fold. If he's slow played a monster flush, then fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fader Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I'd stick it all in there and then. You must be ahead and there is every chance you will get a caller at what would be shocking pot odds. Surley Fader you do want the calling station to call? Are the pot sized bets designed to help you get paid more in the long run? I must admit i play alot of heads-up, rarely play cash games nowadays so it would be different in a cash game i suppose because im up against more variants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? I would push this and bet about 300. The problem may be that at this level, there are far too many players who will call when the odds are against them, and someone on a four-flush may get lucky on the river. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave488 Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Have to agree with most people above, I would bet the pot, you're not giving them the odds for the flush draw so you will win in the long run. I make the odds of them having a higher flush as 8/47 * 4/46 = 1.5% as there only 4 higher spades than your 9. If they have higher flush so be it, but chances are that small that in a STT you have to ignore that small chance, imo.:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted December 4, 2006 Author Share Posted December 4, 2006 Re: Flush on the flop. What do you do? Well, as you will see it's apparent that I played this hand awfully.... :$ Valiant23: checks SammyMay: bets 100 TROGON: raises 100 to 200 Valiant23: calls 200 SammyMay: calls 100 *** RIVER *** [As 2s 7s Qc] [Ad] Me next.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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