Ring tables or tournaments?

[DC]

From the books I have read on Texas Hold'em, the general conception seems to be that pro-players play LIMIT Texas Hold'em Ring Tables aiming to make the Big Blind on average per hour. Your bank should be in the region of 200 times the big blind. I of course am not a pro, but tend to do ok from £5 and £10 ten seater NO-LIMIT tournaments. I have infact purely started playing £5 games and keeping a record as my top 3 strike rate is much higher at this lower level. Should I really be playing seriously in limit ring games though? I would like to hear the thoughts of those that consider themselves pro or semi-pro?

[friskyfitz]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? sorry Danny but I certainly cant help you here as I dispise Limit Poker.... I can't get the same feel for the game as I do for No-Limit but the old saying of......if it aint broke, dont fix it applies here If you are doing well at a certain level and feel you don't do as well at a higher level then stick to the lower level...!!!!! Money NOT LOST buys the same as MONEY WON

[friskyfitz]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments?

I would like to hear the thoughts of those that consider themselves pro or semi-pro?

oooooppppps....never saw that!!

[philossify]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? Hi Danny, Not sure I count as a pro or semi-pro - maybe a quarter-pro playing cheap stakes (making about a £100 per week nowadays playing 20 hours of "value" MTT tournaments - its hard work! - good job I've got a day job!). But welcome to the club, I'm sure theres lots of us on here who see poker as a way forward. Nice thing about poker is that its requires skill as well as luck and "attitude", Generally the more skillfull you are (or become) the more you are likely to be able to make a reasonable profit from the less skillful. IMHO the biggest profits are in ring games - also the biggest risks - the higher the stakes the more the risk! My thoughts (not that I've done it) is build a profit kitty (its much nicer playing with other peoples money) and then do an experiment say starting at £0.50/£1.00 LIMIT games - if you win at a decent rate then build up a bigger kitty and move up the food chain, If you reach a level where you feel that you can maintain a decent income week in week out then do yet another similar experiment on the NOLIMIT game. Whatever you think of as a decent income is your call - bigger it is then the harder it will be to achieve, Poker is a pyramid game. For the guy making huge amounts at the top of the pyramid then theres got to be lots of people losing smaller amounts further down. The only people who can't lose (as usual) are the bookies :cry . Like you I've done an experiment using £5 STTs and can make money at them (not a lot if u figure it in £/hr). Current tack for me is looking for "value" MTTs - I'm finding that some of these can be quite profitable. Another intent is to start moving up the food chain in the STTs. To my mind the key to being successful there is building up your knowledge of the smaller base of players on any particular site at the higher levels (as well as getting your skills honed to perfection) . My own current goal is to get to a point where I can make £10 per hour by the time I get early retirement (not too long away I'm hoping) - £20K per year (for 8 hour day) tax free will be a nice supplement to my pension. If I achieve that (maybe I won't!) then I'll start to experiment moving it forward to more £/hr - - I suspect its somewhat self levelling - you reach a certain level and find that the opposition is consistently beating you! Personally I think the LIMIT ring game is getting too hard - too many people playing by the formula or computer assisted - soon it will virtually be a robots only domain :\. Profit margins for Brits will become untenable - there are lots of people who are happy just making £20 for a 12hr work day in the world! Also LIMIT is so boring.... whenever I play it, unless I really concentrate I eventually find myself betting with hands that I shouldn't according to the formula! Anyway, theres my thoughts for what they are worth.... good luck in your quest.

[friskyfitz]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? excellent post m8 and sums up my poker 100%

[Oskar]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? Exactly what I found when I started Danny, x BB per hour etc etc I tried limit and found it very very boring, I play poker primarily for enjoyment, the cash if i win is nice but as long as it doesnt end up financially interfering with my day to day life fine. Stick to what you enjoy, STT, MTT, the cash tables, limit, pot limit theres really something for everyone. One thing I found is that it is easier to play the 20 STTs rather than the 5 or 10, the skill level is slightly higher, you get less crazy things happening. If you want a book to read check out Harrington on Hold-em, both volumes out now and not one reference to BB per hour :ok

[DC]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? Thanks for the replies guys, glad I'm not the only one who finds LIMIT games boring too. I'm recording 100 x £5 STT No limit tournaments to get a feel for the amount I could win over a period of time. Then I plan to play at least 100 hours at no limit 50p/£1 ring tables and again record the details. Reckon I'll get a good idea of where I'm going after all that.

[DC]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? Just re-read this thread as I'm about to post up my record for the first 50 £5.00 STT games.... Philossify: making about a £100 per week nowadays playing 20 hours of "value" MTT tournaments - its hard work! Wow! - that is impressive, missed that quote first time round. I could pay off most of my debts with a consistent record like that. Philossify, what do you class as "value" MTT tournaments, where do you play and how much generally do you enter for? Thanks Danny

[philossify]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? Hi Danny, the ones I class as value MTTs are those with guaranteed payouts or added bonuses where the number of people entering multiplied by entry fee is less than total payout. They are becoming harder to find! There was one, for example that during the week cost 40p to enter and had a guaranteed prize pool of £200 (£60 1st) - only 100 or so people entered (i.e. you get prize money back equivalent as though you'd entered a £200 tourney for £2). Play tight and its a good payout once or twice a week (weekends it was more to enter but bigger payouts, still same bunch of people). Secret to succeeding when you are playing same people over and over again is to keep notes on them all, its amazing how little some people vary their play! Another secret is concentration, I have a trapped nerve in my neck at the moment and its amazing how my game is suffering through lack of concentration (profit was about £300 for last Saturday/Sunday/Monday and ain't won much since). I'm beginning to think I'm developing Touretttes syndrome all the swearing I'm doing with the pain in my arm. Its rare at the moment that I pay more than £5 to enter but I'm expecting to start paying more in the future. Theres another set on BetFair (now becoming over subscribed and rumoured to be ending) where 50 euros is added to the prize pool - entry is 3 euros or 5 euros - used to be less than 30 entries - again same guys again and again.1st position in them typically pays £40 to £60. Its one of these that gave me £40 recently for 2nd place without even playing a hand when the server fell over. Even nowadays with the entries getting up to 40 or so - the extra bonus more than pays for the "tax", and since some of the new players are of dubious skill its still a good source of income. Then you have various GTD tournements on numerous sites - but you have to keep your eyes open for low entry numbers. Problem with those is that they catch a pool of people that you don't generally know. Its rare nowadays that I go in for generic MTTs (too little time too many MTTs) - but these too are a source of profit for the tight player - theres a lot of people who are not particularly skillled players who enter these for the entertainment value per hour and the very occasional win, so if you go in for these and play tight you are in clover - I used to average about £2 per hour playing the £2+0.25 ones ... now if I was playing these I'd do the £10+1 level and expect to make £5 per hour on average (standard of player is better). I suspect the pool of players for £10 ones is smaller so you have a chance of keeping notes on most of them. And of course theres thngs like the PL $1000 freeroll ... say it gets 100 entries, then you've just been given the equiivalent of a $10 entry fee. I qualified fairly easily for the betfred freeroll Manchester online final - which is the equivalent of $166 entry fee - all I got to do now is be luckier and more skillful than the other 299 who will be in the final and I could have a share of the $50000 on offer. The occasional "apology" tournement (from Betfair) with $25000 added also counts as value $25 to enter and a $50000 total prize pool if 1000 enter. I've had a little money out of some of these (but not as much as I'd like). I used to play multiple MTTs at one time (to ease the boredom) but find that I have much better success if I only do 1 at a time - specially if its a "chosen" one. Hope the above gives you some insight in to my way of operating. Its getting harder to find the right games but theres still some around. The various poker sites are getting more and more canny and experimenting with their available games so I fully expect that the games/sites I play will have to vary accordingly. Poker is one big everchanging experiment :D . Generally if your skill level is better than Joe Average then its possible to make reasonable money. It will be interesting to see your stats on £5 STTs. Lots of luck

[DC]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? Philossify, thanks again for a very informative and in-depth posting. I shall take your advice on board although I'm focussing 100% on my latest project, £5 STT's. Yes, I also take notes on players, (I only play on Betfair) and find that when I do bump into these players it does help a great deal. Of course playing at the same stake/level and site time and time again will increase the frequency of meeting these noted players. I've just finished my 50th game (started 1st August) and here are the results so far. I'm fairly happy as my target for 100 games was £100 - £200 profit, so I'm "on target" with 50 games to play. Games played = 50 Games won = 8 (16%) Games finished second = 8 (16%) Games finished third = 9 (18%) Total games placed = 25 (50%) Total invested £275.00 Total profit £135.00 Return on Investment 49.09% My username is 4thagain so I might see you on the tables soon :D Cheers Danny

[philossify]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? HI Danny, very impressive ROI, only problem is when you figure out the rate per hour. Unless you are playing 2 or more at a time then 50 STTs has probably taken at least 50 hours - which makes your profit only £2.70 per hour, which is about the sort of return that I found in my own experiment. OK, if you enjoy the game (which I hope you do) then its 50 hours of fun as well as profit, but theres more to life than spending all your time playing poker in order to have a reasonable wage :-). Your returns are so good that you might want to think of moving up a level. Suppose you goto the £10 games and your ROI goes down slightly (say to 40% because the opposition is a little better) then £550 invested would return £220 profit which is £4.40 or so an hour (or £8.80 per hour if you can maintain concentration and do 2 at a time). Again it all comes down to what you see as an acceptable "wage" per hours play! But beware , you might find that you don't get 40% ROI - might be more "contenders" harvesting the field at the £10 level. My own tack at the moment is turning towards identifying and playing fewer "targetted" MTT games at possibly bigger entry fees and seeing how I get on in those. Having said that its hard to prise myself away from my current low entry fee, friendly and profitable games where I know the opposition well and have some good craic (especially since two of my Brothers and my stepson also play in some of them). So far today only played 1 MTT - got £16 (5th) for my 40p entry fee - took just over 2 hours. Another one tonite which I've come 1st last two weeks at £150 each time, suspect 3 weeks in a row is a bit much to hope for :-). My aim at the moment is to get to £10 per hour tax free with minimal risk - results of last two weeks have met that aim, however I suspect its just a lucky streak.... only time will tell. Lots of luck

[DC]

Re: Ring tables or tournaments? Philossify. Yes, the hourly rate doens't bother me too much believe it or not. I'm playing one game at a time and each game lasts no more than an hour so at worst it's £2.70 an hour as you say. I'm happy that there is at least some sort of profit being made really!! Going back to my original question though, if I was playing 50p/£1 LIMIT ring tables aiming for £1 per hour or THE BIG BLIND per hour, I'm better off doing what I'm doing now aren't I? Even though the hourly rate is less than £3 an hour it's still better than what the pro's suggest!!!??? And there is the added bonus of knowing the most I can lose in one game/hour is only £5 (+50p) Let's face it - NL poker is a cracking game and I'll admit I think about it all the time and play as often as I can. Keeping track of these £5 games is teaching me to be disciplined and focussed especially as I'm posting my records on this thread! I may consider going up to £10 games at the end of this run, but if I'm making £100 - £200 a month (100 games) why change the stakes? It's early days yet, and there is of course a chance it could all go wrong. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again for your input and good luck.