Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary

[GaF]

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt NL10 - Overall Summary A little late this week. Sorry. Was planning a more detailed analysis this week, but with time running out, I'll just do similar to last week and save something more detailed for another time (I have plenty of ideas for what I want to look at). No hands from Eeyore this week (but he is already underway on next weeks hands :ok) Top Cat submitted his hands this week, but this was his last attempt and he is currently not intending to participate further in this (though is welcome back any time if he wishes, as is anyone else :ok) If you havent seen it, I have posted a dastardly scheme in the Staking forum to try and boost numbers participating in this :hope So this weeks results? All 3 participants posted a loss :sad Even after rakeback. But we WILL turn this around :ok

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Post 1 updated :ok Looks like we're down to just 2 players - not sure how I'll proceed from here going forwards, but for the moment I'll continue with todays update as planned :ok A great week for Charlie Brown and Popeye :clap :clap :clap Interestingly both players have played a bit looser than they have been in previous weeks.

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I've recevied a few hands from Eeyore :ok I wont go through and update the threads I've lready done, but I have updated the overall here - unfortunately, looks like he's struggling a bit :sad Obviously his data will be included in the analysis I still intend to do today :ok

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary

I wont go through and update the threads I've already done' date='[/quote'] Actually, changed my mind - I will update the tables I've already done - shouldnt take that long :ok I wont update the comments at all though (or bump the threads) - they should all be sorted within the next hour or so though :ok

[Nade]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Is the conclusion 10nl rush is unbeatable?

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I definitely wouldnt agree with that - just because we're not beating it doesnt mean its unbeatable. Is that your feeling then?

[glceud]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary There cant be such a thing as a form of poker that is unbeatable unless the rake was unrealistic, and 5% isn't.

[Nade]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Nah I was just messing around. Was thinking after i posted it is any game really unbeatable? Maybe playing Ivey heads up over 50k hands but can't think of much else. I really want to take something from all the analysis you've put into this project so far GAF but there's so much information it's kind of overwhelming but i appreciate your work and i just hope the people starting out cash look into the stats as there's bound to be a lot of vital stuff in there. I do analyse my own data and have done for a while, it's like a routine now where i check over the stats by position and i know what's good and what's abnormal etc. It's good doing it during a session too so i can make sure that no weird leaks creep in or start playing too passive etc.

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Post 1 Updated :ok Last week I flagged the Button as the main area where we look like we should be doing better, so this week it is my intention to focus my analysis on the Button. (once I've updated the summaries).

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Post 1 updated :ok Just 2 players this week :cry :cry Still an open invite if anyone else wants to get involved :ok I'm going to scale back the updates a bit - I'll still do the top level numbers weekly, but anything more in depth (along the lines of what I tried last week) I'll do the first weekend of each month. I am intending today to also look into the results of the feedback I gave specifically to each player last week (though volume is pretty low, so not sure how significant it will be)

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Here's a summary of the overall by position:

	Profit per 1000 hands by Position
	UTG	Hijack	Cut Off	Button	Small Blind	Big Blind
Charlie Brown	$9.14	$24.48	$9.69	$20.85	-$20.54	-$52.13
Popeye	$10.33	$19.09	$25.31	$19.29	-$30.31	-$37.08

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I'm going to show the last 10 hands of the best performer in each position - rather than bump all the threads unncessarily again though, I'll just edit it into the existing bump :ok I cant quite get my head around if I sum up the profit per 1000 hands, why it is so different from the actual totals - I can understand small variances because not all positions have the same volume, but I'm a bit confounded as to why the difference is so big - dont spose anyone has any ideas?

	Profit per 1000 hands by Position
	UTG	Hijack	Cut Off	Button	Small Blind	Big Blind	All
Charlie Brown	$9.14	$24.48	$9.69	$20.85	-$20.54	-$52.13	-$8.52
Popeye	$10.33	$19.09	$25.31	$19.29	-$30.31	-$37.08	$6.62

[Nade]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I don't get your question :unsure Was just looking at the rake and saw for 36k hands it was $400, just checked my last 36k hands at 10x higher level and it was $2.6k which is not 10x as much rake paid, why's that? :unsure Anyway if you have to make 40 buy-ins for every 36000 hands @ 10nl to just break even then seriously i'm not sure it's possible to beat the rake @ rush as you don't have extended reads and information like in a normal game which makes the edges bigger.

[Paul176]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Clearly 10NL rush isn't unbeatable but I would expect edges to be smaller than would be expected for 10NL. First the Full Tilt rake at the micros is meant to be horrific like Nate said. Secondly so much of our ev and winrate comes from being able to identify the fish then just pound on them with TP hands. A lot of play at rush might be optimal based on the information available but given how much less information is available the chosen line is so much less optimal. A bit word that last sentence but I hope I made the point! So lets assume the high rake and lack of information results in slightly lower winrates. Add to that sample size as noone has played a lot of hands and it can easily just be variance at this point. Variance simulator - http://www.pokervariancesimulator.fr/

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary

I don't get your question :unsure

It's ok - I think I've just worked it out :wall :wall :wall If you sum up the profit/1000 hands, then the overall is profit/6000 hands - so need to divide the number by 6 for the overall profit/1000 hands - and (at a glance) that looks about right - pretty elementary really :$ :wall :wall :wall

Was just looking at the rake and saw for 36k hands it was $400' date=' just checked my last 36k hands at 10x higher level and it was $2.6k which is not 10x as much rake paid, why's that? :unsure[/quote'] As I understand it, rake isnt linear as you move up the stakes, mainly because of the cap on rake that is charged per hand - if you look at the rake paid on a $1,000,000 pot, it will still only be $3 or something ridiculous :loon The higher the stakes you play, the more often you end up in a pot where the cap on rake is hit, and each time you hit the cap you're effectively getting a discount on the flat rate percentage of rake It is interesting to think of actually - the higher the stakes you play, the higher the standard of your opponents, but this could be counteracted to a degree by needing a smaller edge to beat the lower rake.

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary

Clearly 10NL rush isn't unbeatable but I would expect edges to be smaller than would be expected for 10NL. First the Full Tilt rake at the micros is meant to be horrific like Nate said. Secondly so much of our ev and winrate comes from being able to identify the fish then just pound on them with TP hands. A lot of play at rush might be optimal based on the information available but given how much less information is available the chosen line is so much less optimal. A bit word that last sentence but I hope I made the point! So lets assume the high rake and lack of information results in slightly lower winrates. Add to that sample size as noone has played a lot of hands and it can easily just be variance at this point. Variance simulator - http://www.pokervariancesimulator.fr/

The link looks interesting, but I cant quite work it out at the moment - How do you work out the Standard Deviation per 100 hands to apply? I think the idea at the moment is that individually we're not necessarily winning players, but that if we take the best parts of each of our play, then collectively we should be winning players - so if we can find situations where other players are making more money (or losing less) than us and adopt that into our game, we should improve (I always find the problem with analysing my HEM/PT3 stats is that I look at my numbers but without anything to reference them to, dont know whether they're good or bad!). For example,if I win 500 BB/100 hands (random number) when dealt AA, is that good or bad? If I'm not maximising my wins, then I'm not winning enough. Similarly, how much should I lose in the BB? If I lose in the BB at 40BB/100, is that good or bad? If I could be losing at 20 BB/100, then my losses in the BB are too big. And that is why I think the Benchmarking works best on Rush Poker - I take the point that you have less information (and so should have a smaller opportunity for an edge) - however the information you are lacking is the more subjective side of poker, so it should make it easier to copy the styles of other players in certain situations, which is the main objective of the benchmarking - I'm sure that if all the players in the benchmarking can develop a more solid and profitable game at Rush poker, then it will also help them in non rush poker when they have extra information at their disposal to utilise.

[Paul176]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I would just pretend what the simulator is in bb not dollars. Makes it easier than trying to divide everything by 10 for 10NL. 75-80 seem like fairly normal SD/100 values. I think you're probably right about benchmarking and rush poker GaF we just need a larger sample size. Shame you can't datamine it then you would start to see the normal winrates and stats generally associated with winners. That being said stats are only so useful. Quote from a 2+2 poster Sugar Nut below. Full post is here.

"Screw aiming for stats. Even if you guys take my advice your stats will differ from mine and they will differ between you guys. There is not THE preflop style that is set in stone to be THE most profitable. All you have to do is focussing on situations, exploiting ALL of your opponents and your stats will take care of themselves."

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Post 1 updated - both players in profit on the week :nana :nana :nana :nana Comparison of the overall by position below:

	Profit per 1000 hands by Position
	UTG	Hijack	Cut Off	Button	Small Blind	Big Blind	All
Charlie Brown	$14.62	$21.82	$10.65	$21.69	-$18.93	-$51.87	-$0.34
Popeye	$9.09	$23.97	$29.00	$20.02	-$33.70	-$38.93	$1.58

[GaF]

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary

	Profit per 1000 hands by Position
	UTG	Hijack	Cut Off	Button	Small Blind	Big Blind	All
Charlie Brown	$15.66	$19.54	$10.23	$22.24	-$17.16	-$49.96	$0.09
Popeye	$10.47	$21.28	$26.84	$22.50	-$29.79	-$37.94	$2.23
Best Of	$15.66	$21.28	$26.84	$22.50	-$17.16	-$37.94	$5.20

[Guest]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Looks like this is coming along nicely ..... keep up the good work guys :ok

[Nade]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I'm amazed whoever is left hasn't lost the will to live.

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary May (Month to date) updated in post 1.

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Post 1 updated :ok I will update all of the positional threads too, but wont "bump" them - I'll just bump them at the end of the month.

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary

Post 1 updated :ok I will update all of the positional threads too, but wont "bump" them - I'll just bump them at the end of the month.

Just updating this months :ok

[Nade]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary Genuine question: What's your motivation to carry on playing 10nl rush? One is 13BIs down, the other 14BIs down with total raked equalling over 110BIs and not even 100k hands played. Do the remaining players really love the game that much? Am i missing something here? :unsure

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary

Genuine question: What's your motivation to carry on playing 10nl rush? One is 13BIs down, the other 14BIs down with total raked equalling over 110BIs and not even 100k hands played. Do the remaining players really love the game that much? Am i missing something here? :unsure

Well ..... what's the alternative? To give up poker? :tongue2 Not gonna happen :lol :lol :lol I cannot speak for other players, but my motivation is that I want to get better - I want to understand what I'm doing wrong and I want to stop doing it. I consider both players to be breaking even after rakeback - I believe that we'll have a breakthrough at some point and both players will be able to improve on break even.

[Nade]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I just think you'd be way better off at say 25nl where the level will be no harder but the rake doesn't hit so hard. 73buy-ins to make a profit? There's a lot easier ways to make money in the poker world.

[GaF]

Re: Benchmarking - Full Tilt Rush NL10 - Overall Summary I think the problem with benchmarking on standard cash tables is Metagame - you can justify a wider range of actions on standard tables with metagame reasons than you can on Rush - I'm feeling that Rush benchmarking will help to develop a standard baseline game for the players which, once they've mastered it, they'll be able to take to standard tables and make slight changes to adjust to metagame factors. Just re-reading your comment - maybe I misunderstood - are you suggesting rather that we should be playing on NL25 Rush instead of NL10 Rush? I dont think any of the players involved in the benchmarking are confident enough in their own game to move up in stakes just yet.