Should I call or fold part 2 ?

[heniek31]

PokerStars Game #38673109718: Tournament #278910637, $8.00+$0.80 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (60/120) - 2010/01/24 22:25:49 WET [2010/01/24 17:25:49 ET] Table '278910637 195' 9-max Seat #6 is the button Seat 1: DJose84 (12535 in chips) Seat 2: ImperioAlviv (5680 in chips) is sitting out Seat 3: heniek31 (13475 in chips) Seat 4: jcmleeds18 (3187 in chips) Seat 5: riddup (3315 in chips) Seat 6: geoso (8450 in chips) Seat 7: pbutler1024 (3655 in chips) Seat 8: MHiggy32 (4925 in chips) Seat 9: AD-3-UD (10548 in chips) DJose84: posts the ante 15 ImperioAlviv: posts the ante 15 heniek31: posts the ante 15 jcmleeds18: posts the ante 15 riddup: posts the ante 15 geoso: posts the ante 15 pbutler1024: posts the ante 15 MHiggy32: posts the ante 15 AD-3-UD: posts the ante 15 pbutler1024: posts small blind 60 MHiggy32: posts big blind 120 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to heniek31 [:Jc: :Ah:] AD-3-UD: folds DJose84: raises 179 to 299 ImperioAlviv: folds heniek31: calls 299 jcmleeds18: folds riddup: folds geoso: folds pbutler1024: folds MHiggy32: folds *** FLOP *** [:Jh: :Tc: :5h:] DJose84: bets 888 heniek31: calls 888 *** TURN *** [:Jh: :Tc: :5h:] [:6c:] DJose84: checks ????? heniek31: bets 1200 DJose84: raises 10133 to 11333 and is all-in Do you call or fold and why? What range of hands do you put him on? As you see, I managed big stack and both of us are the biggest stacks at this table. Blinds are still relatively small. The guy is tight. He won few 3-4k pots with AK-AQ.

[Woodie]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? As played it's a fold. To much to risk with just aj against a tight player. He could have an overpair maybe he has like kq sooted. I think you have to raise flop to ask a question otherwise we don't know were we stand. That's a huge over raise on turn I think he has better than a pair or massive draw or you both have the same and he being very aggro.

[averick]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? If you really see him as a tight player who won't risk his stack on a bluff then you can let this go. If you think he's bluffing he most likely has AhKh/ AcKc / KhQh / KcQc, else JJ/TT/55/66 or an overpair. It also depends alot on your table image as it would help him decide on the line he wants to take against you. I would usually fold here pending a good read and like Woodie said a raise on the flop would have been a good line to take.

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? There has been a raise in other hand and re raise all in and he called as 3rd with 33, so he is able to play LAG.

[averick]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? But were the other 2 stacks already dominated by him? If he had 10k chips and the other 2 were at 2k it wouldn't be hard for him to call.

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Seat 1: DJose84 (14030 in chips) Seat 3: heniek31 (6120 in chips) Seat 4: Brooks2330 (3260 in chips) Seat 5: Nabo28 (3325 in chips) Seat 6: indagame79 (3000 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind) Seat 7: pbutler1024 (2940 in chips) Seat 8: MHiggy32 (1155 in chips) Seat 9: nato888 (4700 in chips) pbutler1024: posts small blind 30 MHiggy32: posts big blind 60 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to heniek31 [2h Jh] nato888: folds DJose84: calls 60 glenviewjack is connected heniek31: folds Brooks2330: folds Nabo28: raises 180 to 240 pbutler1024: folds MHiggy32: raises 915 to 1155 and is all-in DJose84: calls 1095 ? Nabo28: raises 2170 to 3325 and is all-in DJose84: calls 2170 *** FLOP *** [Qh 8h 5h] *** TURN *** [Qh 8h 5h] [6c] *** RIVER *** [Qh 8h 5h 6c] [7c] *** SHOW DOWN *** DJose84: shows [3d 3c] (a pair of Threes) Nabo28: shows [Kc Ks] (a pair of Kings) Nabo28 collected 4340 from side pot MHiggy32: shows [Ah Ad] (a pair of Aces) MHiggy32 collected 3495 from main pot

[averick]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Pretty weird flat call but as played I can see why he called even though he wasn't getting proper odds. I see it as more of fishy play than LAG though, but at this level people tend to take their chances more often. pretty close decision then, but I would lean towards a fold. How did the hand play out?

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Not yet. Few more please. Come on guys ;).

[AJ]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Too much to risk against a tight player, unless he's playing total air I don't see what you're beating. you have the chips to walk away. either a flopped set or a over pair would look possible.

[Woodie]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? That 3 hand could change everything about my first answer then. It's looking like a very good chance he has no clue and a complete donkey. Bbut you say he's tight so maybe just a tight donkey. It's hard maybe he has qj,kj if he's a donkey as thought. Now after the 33s hand. A fold is prob more +ev?? you have a nice stack and still low blinds so a fold isn't bad at all. A call I still don't like with stack sizes but now we can presume he is a donk aj could be good here quite a bit. I'm going to say he has one of the following hand qj,kj,aj,kq

[ELCAKER]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? I think you're monstered here. He's led out from 2nd position...so should have some holding. He's got one caller. HE then leads out again with a substantial bet of 888 possibly to defend against the flush draw. When you call it becomes easier to define your hand. Unlikely you have a flush draw as you wouldn't/shouldn't just call. Now he can probably put you on the jack, so decides to check the turn and let you make the action, which you quite rightly do. But with his QQ/KK/AA he over raises hoping you'll make a bad call with your inferior hand. The only line I can have on you calling is that his huge overbet is AK, (maybe suited) which is a play I often come across. In this case I think it comes down to stack sizes and you can afford to fold here and wait for a better spot. Plenty of play left and if he is making a move then so be it, you'll get the chips back as afterall they are only on loan! :cheers

[billy the punter]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? If he is tight he don't check the turn with a made hand surely? Double flush draw and two straight draws! Non-scare board I would've thought he was giving you rope to hang yourself with a his check on the turn (probably holdings overpair or trips) - as El Caker says and I would pass. However the scare board makes this less likely. Why would you check an overpair or trips on that board? Say if you check behind. Eeek. The only thing I could see him checking would be if he hit the turn - trips 6s. So surprised he hit the turn and checked to trap without really thinking about the scare board. I'm convinced he would've bet his hand on that board on the turn, so this c/r could be a semi-bluff from him. Since read the 33 hand and I think you can even put a less jack into the equation. I understand anyone passing here, with the stacks it certainly isn't wrong. However, I call.

[Fonzie14]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Was it an instant shove or did he think for a bit? I ask because I think he could well be running a semi-bluff with 2 broadway hearts or clubs and figures that even if you call hes still got plenty of outs to flush or straight.

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? It was insta shove :ok.

[Fonzie14]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? I still think he has 2 overs in hearts or clubs. If so you are about 60% fav, so I'm calling...........but I am an AJ donk :tongue2

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? That's more like it :ok.

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ?

If he is tight he don't check the turn with a made hand surely? Double flush draw and two straight draws!

That's what I was waiting for :clap:clap:clap. He shoves and I'm like wtf? It makes no sens whatsoever. I took over 60 seconds, to think it over. I immediately excluded AA, KK, QQ and even flopped trips. Two flush draws and straight draws, so only insane person would have checked that turn holding overpair or trips. Maybe he wanted to get a free card himself with a monster draw with me checking? If he bets another 4-5k on the turn, I insta fold. But shove? Also he knows I have to have a monster to call for my whole stack. I admire it, guy has balls. All in all, if he is on the draw, I will take it. So, even it looks like a bad call, I did call. DJose84: raises 10133 to 11333 and is all-in heniek31: calls 10133 *** RIVER *** [:Jh: :Tc: :5h::6c:] [:Ad:] *** SHOW DOWN *** DJose84: shows [:Ks: :Th:] (a pair of Tens) heniek31: shows [Jc Ah] (two pair, Aces and Jacks) heniek31 collected 25355 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 25355 | Rake 0 Board [Jh Tc 5h 6c Ad] Seat 1: DJose84 showed [Ks Th] and lost with a pair of Tens Seat 2: ImperioAlviv folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: heniek31 showed [Jc Ah] and won (25355) with two pair, Aces and Jacks I got a whine from the guy, how can I call only with TPTK etc. I know it was a bad call, but as I said, there was nothing right with guy's betting and in those situations you just have to go with your gut feeling. Thank you guys for responses.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Hen, Billy's analysis might have been what you were waiting for an this time your hero call definitely worked !! But I remain unconvinced that this was the correct play. It is a dangerous looking board if and only if he puts you on either clubs or hearts, and the way the hand has played out this is unlikely. No one should be calling his flop bet with a flush draw, they wouldn't be getting the odds. Therefore a decent player can surely eliminate that from the equation. Even more unlikely is a club draw on the turn. Only if someone had AcJc could you really put them on a flush draw. I think he read you perfectly, and you got lucky that you were in front. Of course the flip side is that you read his shove as weakness and that is totally fair enough. As i said earlier, I often see people overplaying and overbetting ak and therefore with TPTK, I can see your argument for making the call. You were right this time but in the long run I'm not sure this will be a profitable play. I hope you made the chips count!!:ok

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? I haven't read the rest of the thread since the first post (will do once I've posted my brief thoughts). The guy raises UTG+1 and you flat with AJo in early-mid position. What you've really gotta be thinking about are what is your intention when you decide to even play this hand? What are you hoping for? IMO it's a clear pre-flop fold (even if the guy's raising tons of hands, you've still got loads of people to act behind you), but if you're going to play AJo in early-mid position to an UTG+1 raiser then you really have to be prepared to get all the chips in on a J high board.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ?

There has been a raise in other hand and re raise all in and he called as 3rd with 33' date=' so he is able to play LAG.[/quote'] That's not LAG, that's just fishy :lol

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Cheers El and Dave. As I said, it was a bad call (pre flop too), but we can't play every hand perfectly and we have to take a risk sometimes. I didn't applauded Billy because he is a genius (well he's really) and guessed correctly, but I was very curious if any one would think the same way :ok.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Think if anything it shows the difficulty playing AJo from Mid Position to an early raise.

[heniek31]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? Same kind of hand. There was something fishy, took my time and went with gut feeling. PokerStars Game #39279634293: Tournament #283010495, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (30/60) - 2010/02/05 19:48:38 WET [2010/02/05 14:48:38 ET] Table '283010495 23' 9-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: alepolice (4470 in chips) Seat 2: JAMQ (2280 in chips) Seat 3: raizer"IT" (7688 in chips) Seat 4: carpenter06 (3000 in chips) Seat 5: voulis11 (4350 in chips) Seat 6: heniek31 (3030 in chips) Seat 7: mjabond (5185 in chips) Seat 8: ezerhauden (4435 in chips) is sitting out Seat 9: solmir (3045 in chips) solmir: posts small blind 30 alepolice: posts big blind 60 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to heniek31 [Kd Js] JAMQ: folds raizer"IT": folds carpenter06: folds voulis11: folds heniek31: raises 120 to 180 mjabond: folds ezerhauden: folds solmir: folds alepolice: calls 120 *** FLOP *** [9h 7h Jc] alepolice: bets 240 heniek31: raises 300 to 540 alepolice: calls 300 *** TURN *** [9h 7h Jc] [As] alepolice: checks heniek31: bets 600 alepolice: calls 600 *** RIVER *** [9h 7h Jc As] [6c] alepolice: bets 3150 and is all-in ? heniek31: calls 1710 and is all-in (took 40secs and go) Uncalled bet (1440) returned to alepolice *** SHOW DOWN *** alepolice: shows [Th Qh] (high card Ace) heniek31: shows [Kd Js] (a pair of Jacks) heniek31 collected 6090 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 6090 | Rake 0 Board [9h 7h Jc As 6c] Seat 1: alepolice (big blind) showed [Th Qh] and lost with high card Ace Seat 2: JAMQ folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: raizer"IT" folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: carpenter06 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: voulis11 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: heniek31 showed [Kd Js] and won (6090) with a pair of Jacks Seat 7: mjabond folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: ezerhauden (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: solmir (small blind) folded before Flop

[averick]

Re: Should I call or fold part 2 ? His line was too weird, and he probably did that because of your weak-looking turn bet. Anyone agrees that a shove on the flop from villlain would generally be more effective?