ECOOP exit hands

[Warbirds]

Hi guys I've played two of the ECOOP tourneys this week and twice got out on similar kind of hands. Both of these were peculiar and not at all similar to situations I usually face. I am convinced there is a lot to be said about the ways I played them and I'm ready to accept any constructive criticism... I think the main problem I have had is that after letting the situation reach the point it reached I probably paid too much attention to pot odds when in a tournament I should maybe focus more on survival... I'll try to describe them as I am not a big fan of the iPoker graphic hand history. Anyway, here goes the first one: ECOOP M/E 1680 dollars buy in (I won a sat of course) The start was 5000 chips. After a brief period at 5600 I tightened up due to nothing remotely close to a playable hand showing up. By this time the blinds are 100-200, no ante, and I am on 4670 chips with the average stack being just under 7k. I am on the BB with 5h5d. Everyone folds to the button, who has 6300 chips. He raises to 500. The SB on 3200 folds. My VPIP by then is very low, about 7. The button has not been too loose either and he's on 20 or so. I elect to call as I think he's playing very wide then and while not really set-mining I plan to steal an extra bet from him after the flop unless the flop is a "heavy" one like A-K-T or so. Also I can not stand a re-raise preflop. The flop comes 6c7d8d. I am quite happy with it even though all cards are above my pocket pair. I figure there's little chance it hit him. Also, should he have an overpair I still believe that I have ten perfectly good outs. I decide I'll check raise him. I check, he c-bets as expected 600 chips into a 1100 chips pot. I raise to 1600 chips. He thinks, then puts me all-in. I have 2570 chips left with which to call and there's in effect 5870 chips in the pot, with two cards to come. I would have never thought before the hand started that I'd play my tournament life on this hand, but I have to call, right??? I put him on an overpair or A-high. Sure he could have made a straight already but he'd surely not play the hand like this and try to end it yet. Even if he's made trips and a 5 wouldn't help me I technically have the odds to call. After running out the tiny little iPoker timer I call - he has actually probably the worst overpair as he shows ThTc, effectively killing half of my outs. Plus the turn is a T... The a Q and I'm out. I KNOW I could have layed the hand down and survived with a small 2570 stack. But then again - if I'm going to go anywhere I can not beat retreat in this kind of situation can I???? I realize pot odds apply to cash games where each hand is unrelated to the others... What was the biggest mistake? The preflop call? The too-small check raise? The all-in call? or... all of the above?? I have surprised myself this week as it's been two similar hands where I'm calling knowing that I am behind but I think that I have the odds to call - not a situation I've experienced too often Thanks for your input - and don't be too harsh :$:$ Fred

[Guest]

Re: ECOOP exit hands Im interested in some feedback from others too. We discuss hands quite a lot but unfortunately I'm not a HE expert so this gives Fred a limited view of playing certain hands :sad I still consider myself to have room to play with. Rather than VPIP, Im more concerned with how often the button has been raising from late position and what is his reaction to the re-raise. My line is to re-raise him here to 1300 (pot I think is 800 at this point). My reasons; I think my hand is strong here, but the flop is going to give me a lot of trouble unless it comes all high (in which case an easy fold). His range (without any other knowledge) can be quite wide including any pair, 2 high cards, A or K with most kickers, connected cards - all of these put me in a race on most flops. With my own low VPIP, I want to play strong so he feels like I want to play this hand - play my image (maybe a lower re-raise can still achieve this ?). If he puts me to an all in decision at this point, I have the chance to fold my hand if I think he is unlikely to do this with a marginal hand. This still leaves me with nearly 3.5k - not great but not critical yet. Obviously I want him to fold, but if he calls, I can rule out the weaker end of his range (A,K with mid-low kickers, 2 non connected high cards). The flop is where I struggle - the board looks good, but I could be drawing dead against a better straight draw, flush draw, a higher pair or still 2 overcards. Dont know about the odds, but if I check here, any bet from the button gives (in my mind at least ;)) the options of fold or pushing all-in. It would depend how committed his bet makes him to the pot. A bet of 1/3 to 1/2 the pot leaves me with less than 10 x BB so not comfortable betting out unless I push all in. Interesting hand :ok Hope for some guidance from the rest of you :dude

[slapdash]

Re: ECOOP exit hands I'm not saying this is the right way to play it (and quite likely wouldn't have made any difference to the result), but if you're going to call an all-in reraise after you check-raise to 1600, then might it not be better just to check-raise all-in? That would mean you're risking quite a lot of chips compared to the pot size, though, and maybe it's better to raise preflop, just because you have an awkward stack size for check-raising postflop if you just call? With a slightly smaller stack, it would be more reasonable to check-raise all-in, and with a slightly larger stack, it would be more reasonable to check-raise without becoming committed.

[heniek31]

Re: ECOOP exit hands I don't see the need to push before the flop in this situation. I call hes raise to see the flop. I like your way of thinking. If your read is strong and you believe he has two over cards, you have to be prepared to by all in. I don't agree with you about the flop. I know, its what you wanted, but in my opinion, this is a horrible flop. I'd rather have Q93 or so. I'm closing down here, as I didn't hit my set. I'm folding to CB on the flop. You might believe, he is on two over cards, but now you have to add at least dozen more of hands. So many mid suited connectors and might be set already. I just don't see how you can bit him on that flop. He will not fold to a flush draw or even AhKx. Before you call he's raise pre flop you have two possibility. Call to catch a set and if not, to get out. Or with low cards flop (and I mean lower than it actually was) be ready to push. I'd take the first one.

[Warbirds]

Re: ECOOP exit hands Thanks for your comments (and sorry I can only reply now). I agree that the check-raise size was akward and put me in this difficult situation. Now let's see if I have learned from it! Fred

[ELCAKER]

Re: ECOOP exit hands you know what Fred, i dont think you've done much wrong here mate. Pre flop a button raise can mean anything, and you have a playable hand. Some would advocate re-raising pre, but you dont have much a stack so you're either folding to a re-re-raise or you are going all in. In other words, a re-raise by you doesn't really help define your hand, only whether you are going to gamble because you're pot committed and then get lucky or unlucky. Then your bad luck really starts with that flop! You cant get away from it -just very frustrating that he has the hand he did. If you really want to beat yourself up about it then let them go pre-flop - but personally I'd blame the dealer :-)