SteveO Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 I don't think the German did anything wrong. Roland just had to turn both cards over ffs, good enough for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 So the action is on de wolfe - his choices are to show both cards or muck and there is no action on the German until de wolfe has done one or the other? Roland tried to get away (unfairly in a tournament?) with showing one card, but the German wasnt having it saying "you show both or muck" - and Roland chose to muck. De Wolfe was trying to get away with not showing down both cards (and giving his opponents information) when he was required to do so? The German guy stood his ground until de wolfe made his choice (which was to muck)? I'm still struggling to see what the German did wrong :unsure It looks to me like it was de wolfe trying to get away with not showing his cards when he should :unsure I dont understand why the dealer turned De Wolfes cards over (before there was any controvesy apparent) :unsure Where's dik9? He'll know the answers :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 So the action is on de wolfe - his choices are to show both cards or muck and there is no action on the German until de wolfe has done one or the other? Roland tried to get away (unfairly in a tournament?) with showing one card, but the German wasnt having it saying "you show both or muck" - and Roland chose to muck. De Wolfe was trying to get away with not showing down both cards (and giving his opponents information) when he was required to do so? The German guy stood his ground until de wolfe made his choice (which was to muck)? I'm still struggling to see what the German did wrong :unsure It looks to me like it was de wolfe trying to get away with not showing his cards when he should :unsure I dont understand why the dealer turned De Wolfes cards over (before there was any controvesy apparent) :unsure Where's dik9? He'll know the answers :) I know the answers, we all do, or should do. There was nothing legally wrong. However it was digustingly bad ettiquette, the closest you can come to outright cheating IMO. Maybe the split is a online/live player thing? The fact that you think that it was "unfair" not to go on your backs in this situation tells me that most of your play is online GaF? Which is cool. In these types of situation the cards rarely go on their backs, it usually results in the bluffer mucking or mucking when the winner declares. Very rarely an a*se will insist on the loser showing the cards. You don't see both hands (in this situation) anywhere near as often as you think. RDW declared king high, the German should muck, that is how it works. He used underhand tactics to lead RDW to think his K hi was no good and led him to mucking. This is wrong for the game - end of. It was not innocent from the German so it's ridiculous to say he did nothing wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 I play entirely online, so have no practical experience of live play. There is an order to the sequence a showdown should happen? The last aggressor (RDW) should act first - that's a disadvantage because you're giving the table information (and it's to your advantage if you can avoid that). Surely you're well within your rights (under rules, AND ethically) to wait for the person who should act first to act first (I appreciate it's different in cash games, but this isnt a cash game) - showing 1 card is not an action that is available to you? Is showing 1 card a declaration of King high? I understand it not to be :unsure You havent declared your cards unless you flip them both over - RDW didnt declare - tried to induce the German guy to show his cards out of turn so that RDW didnt have to show his kicker, the German Guy didnt fall into the trap and waited - RDW misread this to mean that King high was no good, and chose to muck - but RDW was the one trying to get out of doing what he should do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 I play entirely online, so have no practical experience of live play. There is an order to the sequence a showdown should happen? Yes but in the real world it doesn't happen. The last aggressor (RDW) should act first - that's a disadvantage because you're giving the table information (and it's to your advantage if you can avoid that). Surely you're well within your rights (under rules' date=' AND ethically) to wait for the person who should act first to act first (I appreciate it's different in cash games, but this isnt a cash game) - showing 1 card is not an action that is available to you? Is showing 1 card a declaration of King high? I understand it not to be :unsure You havent declared your cards unless you flip them both over - RDW didnt declare - tried to induce the German guy to show his cards out of turn so that RDW didnt have to show his kicker, the German Guy didnt fall into the trap and waited - RDW misread this to mean that King high was no good, and chose to muck - but RDW was the one trying to get out of doing what he should do....[/quote'] The German called so by rights, if asked, RDW has to declare. He declared king high. The German should now pass, if he passed RDW would then show BOTH cards to claim the pot. Trust me, this is how it does and should work. GaF surely you need to experience such things to be so opinionated? If this was such an ok move why hasn't it come up before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 fwiw, the german posted this over at 2+2 Just to give a short explanation of the hand: I had good reasons to believe that de Wolfe was bluffing here a decenct amount of the time and that he would just openmuck his hand in this case even if his bluff beats my hand (like lots of live players do when they have been caught bluffing). Just to clarify: I did not say at any point that my hand beats Khi and also never insulted Roland or something (I actually think he's a pretty nice guy and we talked about this hand very friendly just 15 minutes later). I only told him to show his second card or I will not show. Why do you think Roland showed the Kc btw? Definitely not because he though he had any showdown value at all. Imo he showed his hand to pretent to have had a busted flushdraw and/or to make me show my hand. Directly after his river bet, I instantly grabbed the chips out of my stack as if I'd auto call and started a little conversation with him and said that I had a pretty strong hand that I cannot muck (that part has been cut from the vid). So how can de Wolfe possibly think his Khi has any showdown value at all in a big pot like that after he gets called?! I admit that the fist pump was a bit out of line and apologize for it (even though poker is war not a playground). All the pent-up tension has been released at that moment as I didn't expect him to show a K or a bluff that beats me and I was trying to stay cool to make him muck his hand. I don't think my behaviour was unethical or something though. It would have been smarter not to show my hand and just take the pot because this would have saved me from a lot of trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Premeditated as we thought. And as he says, mucking and not showing when called is common in live games. Calling to hope for an auto-muck is ok. I have no problem with that. But the auto-muck didn't happen. His actions (or lack of them) then forced the mucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Billy Sod the ethics, sod the debate, and ignore wether the german did anything wrong or not. Would this situation have happened if RDW turned his own cards over in the 1st place? The blame lies solely on RDW. He never showed his 2 cards til they were mucked...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Billy Sod the ethics, sod the debate, and ignore wether the german did anything wrong or not. Would this situation have happened if RDW turned his own cards over in the 1st place? The blame lies solely on RDW. He never showed his 2 cards til they were mucked...... If he flips then it's case closed, that is correct. But who does that? I would mucked as soon as I was called, and also lost the pot with the winning hand. However after this I think people will be happy to show caught bluffs more and more - just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Dont think poker will ever be called the sport of kings Billy. Got to say though calling with nothing in the hope that your opponent mucks his nothing without showing has to be up there amonst the best higher level plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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