morlspin Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Audio in German but you can hear Roland De Wolfes response here...... Bad Ettiquete? Bad Form? Good Sly Play? You decide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Pretty clearly Roland de Wolfe's error, although the German's angleshoot was questionable. De Wolfe accpeted afterwards that he was at fault, you can't win a pot by showing 1 card and then mucking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Absolute scum bag play from the German. A fragment away from cheating. Roland should know better but there is no place in poker for what his opponent did. He had it in his mind the whole way, hence the celebration as soon as Roland's cards hit the muck. I hate to think how I would've retaliated to that. Similar thing happened to me in a big tourn a Brighton a few years back. I called the bloke down with Q high, and he threw his cards in. I showed Q hi and he retrieved them quickly, it was questionable if they hit the muck - had crossed the line obviously. Maybe a corner did, I dunno. He too had Q high, split pot. I didn't call for a ruling, it's not me, I don't search for those sort of edges. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 The celebration from the German was over the top, but his play was fine. He followed the rules, de Wolfe mucked his hand. I think the fact that you hate to think how you would retaliate says more about you than the German's play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Poker 101, protect your hand. It's your responsibility. He mucked his cards without the other guy turning over his hand. Therefore he lost. Not sporting or the act of a gentleman, what the other guy did but his own fault. All he needs to do is turn his cards face up and let the dealer take it from there. Not a mistake he'll repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 The celebration from the German was over the top' date=' but his play was fine. He followed the rules, de Wolfe mucked his hand. I think the fact that you hate to think how you would retaliate says more about you than the German's play[/quote'] Where have you played live Dave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Where have you played live Dave? Vegas and London (Vic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Vegas and London (Vic). What is your experience at the Vic? Regular? Cash? How many years? etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 What is your experience at the Vic? Regular? Cash? How many years? etc. Not sure how relevant this is to the conversation (although I'm sure you'll claim that it is). I'm not a regular at the Vic as I don't live in the UK, but cash games when I've playerd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Not sure how relevant this is to the conversation (although I'm sure you'll claim that it is). I'm not a regular at the Vic as I don't live in the UK' date=' but cash games when I've playerd.[/quote'] It relevant because if you are not a regular LIVE player, or have played live a handful of times you are not qualified to answer the question, definitely not in the opiniated matter you did - especially not to quesion someone with a wealth of experience. PS - Try the German's stunt live yourself, see how you get on. PPS - Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 It relevant because if you are not a regular cash player, and have played live a handful of times you are not qualified to answer the question, definitely not in the opiniated matter you did - especially not to quesion someone with a wealth of experience. PS - Try the German's stunt live yourself, see how you get on. PPS - Good luck. How am I not qualified to answer the question? Please tell me one casino you have played in (I assume there have been a lot), where the German's actions are against the rules? How people react to his actions and whether his actions are within the rules are 2 completely different issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 "I hate to think how I would've retaliated to that." And I say again, that quote says more about you. How tall are you? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 "I hate to think how I would've retaliated to that." And I say again, that quote says more about you. How tall are you? ;) You always disagree with me. I've made a living at poker for years. What does that say about you? Interesting huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 You always disagree with me. I've made a living at poker for years. What does that say about you? Interesting huh? So any casinos where the German's actions are against the rules yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 So any casinos where the German's actions are against the rules yet? Please tell me where I said it was agains the rules. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Please tell me where I said it was agains the rules. Thank you. You said I wasn't qualified to comment. I assume that as I know the correct ruling (regardless of experience) I am qualified to comment. If I turn out to be wrong on the ruling (I won't), then I will take back my comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Don't think anyone disputes what he did was perfectly legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 You said I wasn't qualified to comment. I assume that as I know the correct ruling (regardless of experience) I am qualified to comment. If I turn out to be wrong on the ruling (I won't)' date=' then I will take back my comments.[/quote'] No, you commented on the ettiquette of it. We all KNOW it's within the rules, even you. The original post does not quesion the legality of the play. Nor did I. You questioned my opinion on the matter. Which is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 You questioned my opinion on the matter. Which is ridiculous. I question only your potential reaction to something that is legal. I quote again "I hate to think how I would've retaliated to that." In my original post I even said "although the German's angleshoot was questionable" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedinight7 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 not sure how relevent this is to the convo but got a couple of pairs of boxing gloves for sale :loon my 2 bobs worth, you cant much and pull em back out when u see shit.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 a player with Roland's experience should know a lot better imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Old discussion synopsis German - knew how brit would play - clever imo Brit - greeeeeen despite his experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 This had split poker players I've found. Roland without doubt should know better, I agree. If Roland mucked when he was called - which would happen a lot of the time then it's no problem. Stupid but that's the way it goes I'm afraid. However he was led to muck by the German. At the very least, it's an eye-opener for us all. Personally I couldn't do what he (German) did. If nothing else it could come back to haunt him in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Have to confess - I dont totally get what happened. Am I right in thinking the showdown is completely different for cash games and tournaments? That in cash games, you "negotiate" what you have and only the best hand usually shows - in tournaments, at showdown, there is no negotiation and all players at showdown are expected to show (or muck if behind to what's already shown)? In this case, Roland de Wolfe didnt want to show his King high cards, so he tried to take the cash option of negotiating his cards so that he didnt have to show - didnt get the information he wanted/needed, half heartedly showed his king, then mucked rather than show his other card, leaving the German with the best (only) hand. I dont know why he chose to show (other than ego - maybe misdirection for later?), but he didnt need to - as soon as Roland mucked, he was the only player left in the hand and won. I'm not sure what the German is supposed to have done wrong :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Anyone who thinks this isn't bad etiquette obviously looks to exploit these situations in his own game. Absolutely disgusting play from the german and lucky that he wasn't playing a more aggressive type of player who would have lamped him. Roland clearly shows one of his cards and announces King high. At this point the german should have just thrown his cards in and said nice hand. In fact he should have folded the river or re-raised. How long can he hang on to the hand for exactly after the other player announces his hand? I question whether he mucked because the dealer stopped them from hitting the muck and turned them over. The dealer should not have turned them over if they were mucked. The german may have won the hand but he was the loser in my opinion. Who was he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Anyone who thinks this isn't bad etiquette obviously looks to exploit these situations in his own game. Absolutely disgusting play from the german and lucky that he wasn't playing a more aggressive type of player who would have lamped him. Roland clearly shows one of his cards and announces King high. At this point the german should have just thrown his cards in and said nice hand. In fact he should have folded the river or re-raised. How long can he hang on to the hand for exactly after the other player announces his hand? I question whether he mucked because the dealer stopped them from hitting the muck and turned them over. The dealer should not have turned them over if they were mucked. The german may have won the hand but he was the loser in my opinion. Who was he? Two points here, 1 the other player does not announce his hand, to do that you turn them over and display two cards. He flashed one card them mucked. Deeply stupid. The guy played him. You don't win a pot with one card. The guy has gone to show down, you need to put them on their backs. They blatently hit the muck, don't think it's even debatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 The dealer clearly turns over both cards K8 - why would he do that if they were mucked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Have to confess - I dont totally get what happened. Am I right in thinking the showdown is completely different for cash games and tournaments? That in cash games, you "negotiate" what you have and only the best hand usually shows - in tournaments, at showdown, there is no negotiation and all players at showdown are expected to show (or muck if behind to what's already shown)? In this case, Roland de Wolfe didnt want to show his King high cards, so he tried to take the cash option of negotiating his cards so that he didnt have to show - didnt get the information he wanted/needed, half heartedly showed his king, then mucked rather than show his other card, leaving the German with the best (only) hand. I dont know why he chose to show (other than ego - maybe misdirection for later?), but he didnt need to - as soon as Roland mucked, he was the only player left in the hand and won. I'm not sure what the German is supposed to have done wrong :unsure Not really GaF. If Roland mucked his hand as soon as he was called, thinking he was beaten, then there is no issue. However, he didn't do that. He declared king high. The German allowed him to think that was beaten but insisted Roland show both cards, Roland did not want to as he was basically made to think he was beaten, he then mucked. The German knew exactly what he was doing, he made an incorrect call and when he realised his Q was beaten he used underhand tactics in order to be awarded the pot. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 The dealer clearly turns over both cards K8 - why would he do that if they were mucked? The dealer only turned Rolands cards over after he pushed them accross the line face down. The German was very clever here, he waited for Roland to show his hand, if Roland had simply turned his over to claim the win, the german would have mucked his cards and Roland would have won the pot. By Roland showing just 1 card, it means fck all, he then pushed his cards over the line and his hand is now dead. German wins regardless of his hand. As a bracelet winner, Roland should know better. Its called a showdown for a reason, if you wanna win, you gotta show! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Controversial Hand at the EPT Barcelona 2009 Not really GaF. If Roland mucked his hand as soon as he was called, thinking he was beaten, then there is no issue. However, he didn't do that. He declared king high. The German allowed him to think that was beaten but insisted Roland show both cards, Roland did not want to as he was basically made to think he was beaten, he then mucked. The German knew exactly what he was doing, he made an incorrect call and when he realised his Q was beaten he used underhand tactics in order to be awarded the pot. Wrong, wrong, wrong. These are basically my thoughts too. Personally i wouldn't stoop to such low depths to try and win a pot unless i was playing in a huge cash game way over my head then i might get a bit desperate :lol but other than that there's no need for it really. It's a massive angle-shoot by a desperate player IMO. And Roland is a legend, though a bit dopy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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