A bad beat?

[Godders]

Ok, here's the set up: Very early in a $0.50 + $0.10 10-seater single table SnG Blinds are @ level 1: $10/$20 Seat 1: $1,780 Seat 2: $1,000 (SB) Seat 3: $2,120 (BB) Seat 4: $1,630 Seat 5: $1,480 (me) Seat 6: $1,380 Seat 7: $1,480 Seat 8: $1,190 Seat 9: $1,470 Seat 10: $1,470 Seat 4 calls, and I've got Jd, Ac. I figured that in a micro stakes SnG, this hand is worth a play, so I raise to $80. Everyone folds round to the SB who calls, as does BB and seat 4. Flop comes Ts Jh 8d. Action is checked to me. I figure I have this hand won at this stage, so I jump in with a bet of $160. SB calls, BB folds and Seat 4 calls. Turn comes 8h. Again the action is checked to me. I raise to $760, which is the small blind's stack (in hindsight, this was pretty stupid since I forgot about the potential sidepot), but it had the desired effect since SB called all in and seat 4 folded. I show my J A, feeling pretty smug, only to see SB turning over 7s 8s. Pretty gutted after that seeing that! So my question, as a real newbie, to you is... Would any of you played the hand differently? I've been critiquing my performance myself (over and over!), and the only two differences I would have made would be possibly laying down the hand to begin with (I appreciate AJ off is not a great starting hand in early position), and looking at that final bet again. I'm thinking possibly another half-pot bet would have been better on the turn since Seat 4 probably would have folded to any action, a re-raise from the SB would make me worry about him holding A8 (I'm not sure K,Q,J or T8 would be strong enough to call a 4x BB raise pre-flop even at this level), and even if the SB called, he possibly would have bet first on the river with his trips giving me another chance to get out. I would appreciate any input from you more experienced folk! Thanks in advance...

[muttley]

Re: A bad beat? 1) I wouldn't get involved with A,J out of position this early in a SnG. 2) The flop is dangerous. You can't be sure you're ahead with top pair top kicker here. Take a stab by all means, but once you get a call you should be done with the hand. 3) Once the second 8 comes down you should check. Your opponent would have bet the river, but chance are you wouldn't have lost as many chips, even if you decided to call. 4) Try to get away from the idea that top pair, top kicker is a lock hand.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: A bad beat? With regards to the title of the thread, I wouldn't say it is a bad beat as such. Hard to take for a beginner yes, (god knows, when I started playing a few months ago I was for tossing laptop out the window with hands like this). Your raise on the turn has pretty much made you pot commited, and with a paired board that is very dangerous, even with top pair. Like Muttley above, Im checking the turn here with a view to folding I reckon, if a bet made on the turn was for a substantial portion of my stack.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: A bad beat? i agree with the above:ok aj is not a good hand to be playing from early position on a 10 seater(6 seat its a lot better;)),although it seems like a good hand it can really get you in a lot of bother. if someone reraises you can get tempted to call ,any caller and your hoping for a jack high non scary board and thats about it. i might have flat called pre flop and hoped to see a cheap flop but i wouldnt want to build a big pot with it. you sorta get a good flop that its j high but with the str8 combos it is not brilliant. here's where raising pre makes life tricky,with 320 in the pot you need a big bet to scare off draws or players with an 10 or 8 but you might be betting out with someone on a made str8 (q9 or 79) or 2 pair. if you bet half pot (which is probably the best thing to do once you did raise) you have to be a bit carefull if you do get a caller and i'd be wary on the turn/river. once the 8 lands its getting very scary and i wouldnt be putting much more in unless i had a specific read on the player.you could have already been behind on the flop,if not the eight might have helped them. regarding his call i would have been doing the same a lot of the time:ok 87 is not the best admittedly but he's getting in fairly cheap with a multiway pot and its easy to fold the 87 if he doesnt hit big, if he does the chances are your gonna double thru as people dont expect you to have it. the only reason i wouldnt call is that he's short already, so will make less out of the disguised hand than he would if he had a few more chips.

[Godders]

Re: A bad beat? Thanks for the input so far. I agree that A J off in early position is not a hand a conservative player would have got involved with, and that I should have laid it down. However, when the flop came down, I don't think that there was any reason to think I didn't have the best hand. These are the hands that would have me beat at this stage: AA KK QQ JJ TT 88 JT J8 T8 Q9 I would say that after I raised 4x BB pre flop, AA, KK, JJ, TT and possibly 88 would have called (AA & KK maybe would be worth a re-raise). JT, J8, T8 and Q9 aren't really strong starting hands anyway, let alone worth a play in the face of a raise pre-flop. There's also the possibility of AK calling my raise, which is now on a straight draw. Here's my next question - if you were holding a hand that had me beat, would you really be checking this flop? If you had AA or KK, I would be happy I've got the strongest hand, but concerned about the straight draw. I wouldn't be checking these hands. QQ might be worth a check if I was concerned about a higher pocket pair, but again I'd be worried about giving AK a free card to hit the Q. With JJ and TT (and 88 if I'd played it), there's no point in slowplaying by checking since again a Q might hit the river to make a straight for any AK hanging around. With any of the other hands, in my opinion, it would have been foolish to call a pre-flop bet, but if they did, there's still no point in checking and letting AK get a free draw. Looking at my opponents 78s, he's already called a pre-flop bet (which is a loose play with this holding), then flopped bottom pair. The out's he's looking at at this stage to have a decent chance of winning the hand (if doesn't consider his 88 to be strong enough) are a 7, 8 or 9, giving him about a 19% chance to win the hand (or 5-1). My half pot bet means he's now looking at getting 2-1 on his money. If it were me, I would lay this hand down now - my opponent led with a bet pre-flop, then a bet post flop after action was checked so is obviously representing a hand stronger than my 88, and I'm not getting the pot-odds I need to hit 2 pair, trips or a straight on the next card. Does anyone agree/disagree with my reading of the hand so far?

[muttley]

Re: A bad beat? You seem to be dismissing some of his possible hands, including the one he had, and not considering other possible hands. (Q,Js) for instance, gives him top pair and a gut shot draw. (K,Q) has an open ended straight draw, (Q,10) and (Q,A) could reasonable stick around. I don't see why you think that (8,7s) is a loose call when everyone is effectively deep stacked. It has potential to flop a disguised monster and win a big pot. He isn't 19% to win the hand after the flop, he is about 36% He may also consider he has implied odds, which your turn bet justifies in spectacular fashion! I would also caution about the number of players at this level who are happy to play (A,8) especially if it's suited. I know it's a weak play, but it happens. Finally, I would re-emphasise my earlier advice not to get over excited about top pair, top kicker, especially on a dangerous flop, even more so on a paired board.

[TopDonk]

Re: A bad beat? Yeah I think your perception of other players at micro level is way off. But you will get a better idea of ranges the more you play. I think your main error here is getting involved with AJ from EP. As played I am c/f the turn here. also I wouldnt say this is a bad beat