SpiritOf67 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Had plenty of cashes in the 10 man STT's i play, a lot of seconds and thirds but haven't won a tournament for a while. I've had a few really bad beats recently which have put me out where I could have ended up with a big stack but a lot of the time I end up a fair bit behind chips wise heads up. I've made a decent profit, generally playing $5.50 stt's but really need a few wins to boost the bankroll, getting frustrated getting into good positions only to win $4.50 coming third. Is this symptomatic of someone not being aggressive enough, consider myself a tight-aggressive player or is it just a case of bad luck or circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? GaF will sum it up in one word no doubt...... beginning with V and ending in E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaulc Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? GaF will sum it up in one word no doubt...... beginning with V and ending in E. :lol i was thinking the exact same thing :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? Are you changing your playing style as the game advances. I've found this to be the main weakness of most sng players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? If, over a large enough sample, you are finishing 2nd and 3rd more frequently than you should, and winning less frequently than you should, then it would suggest to me two likely causes (as you suggest): - you are not aggressive enough short handed and being blinded away and/or pushed off pots too easily - you are too passive approaching the bubble, when other players around you are building a stack. I would suggest picking out some of what you consider to be marginal decisions around the bubble and late on and have a play with them in ICM and see if that supports the decisions you made. As Mick says too - you must switch gear in STTs dependant on situations - often stack sizes will be a more important factor to your decisions than your cards! I'm also a bit confused by the structure you're playing - it's 10 seat $5.50 games, but 3rd place only gets you $4.50 back? That sounds unusual! If you're making a good profit, then it sounds like your decisions arent that bad! Bad beats you shouldnt care about - much better to go all in with AA v 77 and lose than to go all in with 77 v AA and win! The result of a small number of hands is irelevent - you profit when you put the money in with AA v 77 (regardless of the result on this specific occasion) and you lose when you put the money in with 77 v AA (regardless of the result on this specific occasion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritOf67 Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? If, over a large enough sample, you are finishing 2nd and 3rd more frequently than you should, and winning less frequently than you should, then it would suggest to me two likely causes (as you suggest): - you are not aggressive enough short handed and being blinded away and/or pushed off pots too easily - you are too passive approaching the bubble, when other players around you are building a stack. I would suggest picking out some of what you consider to be marginal decisions around the bubble and late on and have a play with them in ICM and see if that supports the decisions you made. As Mick says too - you must switch gear in STTs dependant on situations - often stack sizes will be a more important factor to your decisions than your cards! I'm also a bit confused by the structure you're playing - it's 10 seat $5.50 games, but 3rd place only gets you $4.50 back? That sounds unusual! If you're making a good profit, then it sounds like your decisions arent that bad! Bad beats you shouldnt care about - much better to go all in with AA v 77 and lose than to go all in with 77 v AA and win! The result of a small number of hands is irelevent - you profit when you put the money in with AA v 77 (regardless of the result on this specific occasion) and you lose when you put the money in with 77 v AA (regardless of the result on this specific occasion) Thanks for the detailed reply GAF. When coming third you get $10 back which is a $4.50 profit, sorry I probably worded it poorly. What is ICM? The reason I used the bad beats example is recently I had KK beaten by J6 at the late stages of an STT in a big pot which I feel I would have went on to win and broke my duck Rule Britannia, what word starts with V and ends in E and couldn't you just have typed it out? In my last 8 tournies on sharkscope I've cashed 4 times, two 2nds and two 3rds but I honestly can't remember the last time I won. And in my previous eight games I'd say it was probably a similar ratio. I thought some of what you have said was probably the case originally but wanted to see if anyone else had just went on a poor run in terms of wins. Will look to adapt my game a bit and be more aggressive in the later stages from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuleBritannia Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? Rule Britannia, what word starts with V and ends in E and couldn't you just have typed it out? . Variance :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? The Internet Chip Model (ICM) is a (very good) mathematical solution for the final stages of an STT. My understanding of how it works is that it counts every chip of every player as a "lottery ticket" with equal chance - from that it calculates the chance for each player in finishing in each finishing position - this chance can be multiplied by the prize money for that position to give the EV (expected value) for each player in the tournament and subsequently for each decision he makes. It only works when relatively short stacked (less than about 10xBB IIRC) when the only realistic decisions are shove or fold - if at this stage you play good ICM poker, you wont go far wrong - if you dont play ICM poker, then you'll probably be exploited by your opponents. You also need to define the range of your players - this can change the result, but often quite a wide range will give the same result. Because of ICM a lot of player consider STTs virtually solved games. Many disagree, however few reject the value of ICM! There are ICM tools that you can download - SnGEGT (http://www.sngegt.com/) and SnG Wizard (http://sngwiz.com/). I think both software have training tools that give you scenarios and test what you would do - worth spending some time playing with. If you dont know what ICM is, then I feel you will be at a big disadvantage over your opponents who do know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? Here's a good article I came across. http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-articles/a-guide-to-single-table-tournaments-2426097 Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzai Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? The Internet Chip Model (ICM) is a (very good) mathematical solution for the final stages of an STT. ICM stands for Independant Chip Model. Also, OP, can you give us the stats for your placings please. I have a feeling the sample size is going to be very low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritOf67 Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? ICM stands for Independant Chip Model. Also, OP, can you give us the stats for your placings please. I have a feeling the sample size is going to be very low. Dunno how to copy and paste from Sharkscope. 27th July - 3/10 23rd July - 8/10 23rd July- 5/10 22nd July- 7/10 21st July- 3/10 20th July- 2/10 19th July- 2/10 16th July- 5/10 Games played since the WH Software changed - 34 Av Profit- $2 Av stake - $5 Av ROI - 35% Total profit - $65 ( although ive counted Sharkscope have missed two tournaments where i came 3rd and one where i finished out of the money. So it should be $68.50 i think) Ability/100- 72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? 34 games is a meaningless sample. However if you maintain a 35% ROI (you wont!!) then you are crushing it. Dont change a thing!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzai Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? Until you have played around 3000 STTs I wouldn't worry too much about going on a run without a 1st place. On such a small sample as yours, it's possible to go that long without cashing (I know because it happened to me last month and it was painful). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritOf67 Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? 34 games is a meaningless sample. However if you maintain a 35% ROI (you wont!!) then you are crushing it. Dont change a thing!!! Before the WH software changed I had played 997 games but I can only see my previous 8 results from that in sharkscope as I think you need to be a member to see the last 50. Thanks for the support guys, just started an STT and reading the article posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritOf67 Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? I just won :nana:nana:nana Muttley- I had that article open during the STT, tried to adhere to it as much as possible when the blinds went up and it became short-handed. God I've never been so aggressive in my life, raising with any ace, I had palpitations! I went from being the short stack to the large stack from just pushing with 1300 chips at one point to then getting a decent stack and just raising with any ace or pair. Think i maybe overdone it at times or just got unlucky, raised with a7 and a8 under the gun only to see 2 pushes and it was just as the blinds were increasing in my big blind. It was a mammoth short-handed game, quite a tight table so most of my raises were getting through and the few all-ins that there were seemed to be won by the small stack. Heads up I think i was about 12500 v 2500 but he kept having a hand and I think it got as close as 8500 v 6500 before i managed to get him. Thanks for all the advice guys and muttley for the article which I am gonna stick in my favourites. Anyway enough of that mad aggression for one evening... I'm away for a lie down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? Nice one mate. :ok The big mistake that most players make is being too loose in the early stages and too tight in the later stages. Of the two too tight in the later stages is the biggest crime. Glad you like the article, particularly as it made me reread it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritOf67 Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Re: Not won an STT for a while, not being aggressive enough? Played another 2 tournaments tonight. First tournament I went out 9th, think the blinds were 30/60- was in late position with KK. There had been an early raiser to 180 and two callers and I shoved for about 1300 only to run into AA :sad Had around 200 chips left after that and when I eventually pushed with 99 ran into tens, so this really wasnt my tournament! Second tournament- came 2nd. Was really unlucky heads up losing both the big hands despite being favourite twice. The positive thing is though I had the lead going into the heads up about 9000 v 6000. Unfortunately the first hand he pushed on my bb and I called with A4, only to be outflopped by 7 10 :eyes I was obviously low stacked after that and after a few all in and folds from both players he eventually pushed on my bb again and I called with k9 only to see his k4 make a pair of fours. An unlucky defeat heads up but it can always be a bit of a lottery. The main thing was going into heads up ahead giving myself as good a chance as possible to win. Thanks again for all the advice lads :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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