LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

[GaF]

I'm really struggling at the moment on the Cash tables - everything I do seems doomed to failure - I wish it were variance, but believe that it's more likely that my game is fundamentally flawed (and always has been). So I feel I need to go back to basics and build from the bottom. I signed up to deucescracked and downloaded most of their library this week during the free 7 day trial. To be honest though - the videos I'm trying to watch dont really seem to be helping me - I'm not finding those groundbreaking gems (and to be honest am finding the videos quite boring and my mind is wandering....) - I cant see that they're going to work for me. So what I'm going to try and do is read a thread a day on two plus two and see if that can help me - have just started out on the first one - thought I'd post them here too - for a few reasons: - If I'm posting them then it will encourage me to keep this going longer than if I'm just doing it myself - It might encourage others to take the journey with me - We might be able to get some discussion going on some of them, helping us to get a deeper understanding of the issues involved. Basically, my first step will be pretty much to work through the links here - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/micro-stakes-pl-nl/unl-archives-memorable-strategy-threads-430489/ So .... first one ..... "What were you thinking" - not read it yet, but a skim gives the impression that it is discussing the way you talk to yourself during a hand.....

Hey guys, Thought I would hit you up with an article type post this fine Tuesday. One of the most important things in poker is how you talk to yourself. Every hand is a puzzle that you have to slowly put together over the course of the five streets, in order to deduce logically and accurately what your opponent holds, what he is likely to do with that holding, and how we can manipulate him to give us his money. But the problem that a lot of us (including me) have is that we dont think that well all the time. I think that this can be attributed to the fact that we dont talk to ourselves in a way that we could describe as "beneficial" or "logically optimal". What I'm going to do in this thread is list some common thoughts that micro-stakes poker players have, and put them into categories. The idea is that maybe you will see some of the common thoughts you have in the "sub-optimal" categories and learn to recognise that you might need to improve your logical reasoning. Then I'm going to show you a hand I played last night where I was very proud of my logical reasoning which stopped me losing my stack with a great hand, where usually I would have just gone broke. Here goes! A. Poor and unacceptable thought processes 1. *fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap* 2. Wow, 2p2 is so awesem! LOL Georgia Avenue is so funay, BBV4eva!! 3. Come on *sports team*, I've got SRS MONEY ON YOU BSTRDS (£"*%&^ 4. Wow Seinfeld is so funny! * 5. I am God's gift to poker. Poker is so EZ. Im gonna win $$$ this session B. Common yet sub-optimal thought processes 1. Wow, a re-raise... I should fold my QQ, he probably has aces 2. I have a flush draw, and a flush is a great hand. I'll make lots of money if I hit, so I call. 3. The board is 8s8s4d, and he bets... my AK can't really stand this heat. I fold. 4. He's so loose, I know he is bluffing. I can call with my mid pair on the river here. 5. I have top two pair, thats a great hand. I can call this river shove, if he has me beat I guess thats too bad. C. Partially optimal processes which need refinement 1. I raised preflop, and he's checked. I can c-bet here and take it down. 2. I have the NFD, and these players are loose passive. I'm going to bet here as a semi-bluff. 3. I have 87s, which can hit a LOT of flops. I'm going to raise it as a semi-bluff, cause if I get a call, I can still hit. 4. I have TT, which is a decent hand, but those overcards scare me so I'll bet now and take it down. 5. My AK missed this low, un-coordinated board, but he's checked anyway so I'll just bet and take it down now. D. Well rounded and logically optimal thoughts 1. I have a mid PP which could definitely be good, and he has bet small into this pot. But the fact that there are overcards on the board, and the fact that I am more than likely to face further betting on all postflop streets from here means that showing down my hand cheaply is going to be very difficult. I'm just going to have to submit to reverse implied odds and let him have this pot. Given that I have nothing invested in it, and my equity versus his range is poor, I'm not too worried. 2. Ive missed this low board with my AQs, and the fact that he has called my PFR in the BB means that although he could have overcards, pocket pairs are HUGE in his range as well. The fact that he's checked doesn't mean that he's going to fold. In fact, with an AF of 6.5, he could definitely be going for a checkraise. If I check behind here, I may be able to catch my A or Q, or a running heart draw, and get some value from his mid PP that he thinks is good. If I c-bet here its really as a bluff, and I don't think that this bluff has much chance of succeeding, given that I estimate a lot of his range to call me. Getting check-raised here would be a total disaster because he could be bluffing me with some crap which I beat like AJs, QJs, just based on my high c-bet percentage. I'll just check behind and see what happens on the turn. Given that I have position, I'm in a good spot to re-evaluate the hand and play to the river. 3. What is going on here? He check-calls two streets and open shoves the river. What kind of hand could this be? Well, there was the heart draw on the flop which missed. Then there was the backdoor straight draw on the turn which missed. Given that this clown is 38/15/5.0, his range certainly includes these busted draws. Well what about the hands which beat my two pair? JJ would have re-raised preflop, given his AF. Any set would have raised the flop or turn, according to both his AF and the fact that the board is so ugly. So though I'm not ruling them out, they are definitely less likely. Besides, I've been watching how this guy plays and that thin river shove he made with TPMK against the guy to my left was horrible - he seems really splashy. Maybe he's still upset about how I outdrew him with my OESFD? Given that his range includes a huge amount of missed heart draws and top pair kind of hands, I'd say I'm definitely good here a lot of the time, and I'm getting really nice odds. I call! OH WHATS THAT, A BUSTED DRAW?? SHIP IT! 4. I have an OESD, so I'll bet against this moderately passive guy as a semi-bluff. He usually folds so I'll just win the pot with nothing, thankyouverymuch. ... Oh crap, he minraised. Well, okay. What type of hands would he do this with? Top pair kind of hands, two pairs, maaaybe the occaisional draw. Given that he's so bad, I think its worth it to try and catch my hand because he is more than likely to overplay top pair or two pair, and if he has a set, its like free money. Given that his minraise gives me great implied odds, I'll call. Nice! I caught my draw. Okay, so how to extract? Well, I feel like this guy will bet again if I check , and a checkraise will look a lot like a bluff, and though there are two hearts on the board, the FD is certainly unlikely in his range. So I'll checkraise him, and put the rest in on the river. Time to push - he can definitely put me on some kind of missed heart draw, and the money in going in anyway if he has a set. Its the perfect trap. Well he caught two pair on the turn, but I managed to manipulate him by combining his flop minraise mistake with his tendency to overplay bad hands with a nice checkraise and river push where he was getting very attractive odds to call. nh! (Hand history for number 4) Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) Hero (SB): $221.27 BB: $126.57 UTG: $33.42 MP: $98.50 CO: $62.06 BTN: $78.90 Preflop: Hero is dealt T Q (6 Players) UTG calls $1.00, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.50, BB checks Flop: ($3) 5 J K (3 Players) Hero bets $2.50, BB raises to $6.00, UTG folds, Hero calls $3.50 Turn: ($15) 9 (2 Players) Hero checks, BB bets $13.00, Hero raises to $50.00, BB calls $37.00 River: ($115) A (2 Players) Hero bets $70.00, BB calls all-in for $69.57 Uncalled bet of $0.43 returned to Hero Pot Size: $254.14 ($3 Rake) BB had J 9 (two pairs, Jacks and Nines) and LOST (-$126.57) Hero had T Q (a straight Ten to Ace) and WON (+$124.57) 5. AKo, premium hand, I'll 3bet it for value against this 54/20/4.0 because I'm so far ahead of his range. He flat calls. Well, I guess we can put him on a pretty wide range - broadway and pairs, predominantly. Also I'll throw in Axs type of hands. I think I'll weight the range towards PP's, and then broadway, then suited stuff. So I hit gin on the flop, but most of his range can't stand a bet, and if I bet now i'll just win the minimum. But if I bet turn and river, hands like QQ, JJ will be compelled to call, and though I get value from hands like KQ and KJ if I bet now, I dont want to weight my bet too heavily towards that end of his range. I want to let other worse hands in as well. Given how safe and dry the board is, I can risk giving a card without too much trouble. Right so turn pairs the board, time to bet. ..... UHHH WTF. MINRAISE. Ok well this sucks. Baluga all the way. Well what can he have? Kx type hands are definitely in his range here, and I'm ahead of all those hands. I cant see him having a 6 unless he has quads. Could he have 68s? Very wierd spot. But the point is, I'm wa/wb here and he cant be bluffing this board. There are no draws of any kind and this is a 3bet pot. He cant be raising queens because of the K on the board, even if I did check the flop. He can definitely have aces. I really can't shove here, its too thin, but I can't fold. If he has a set and I catch another K I get all the money. I'm going to call and check the river. If he shoves, I'll fold. If he bets small, I'll call because I'm still ahead of those Kx type hands. But I really can't shove here! Ok he bets smallish on the river. I can't raise but I'll call. If he has a big hand he is really really stupid. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $24.21 Hero (BB): $31.15 UTG: $82.13 MP: $11.68 CO: $24.65 BTN: $40.12 Preflop: Hero is dealt K A (6 Players) UTG raises to $0.75, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2.30, UTG calls $1.55 Flop: ($4.70) K 8 6 (2 Players) Hero checks, UTG checks Turn: ($4.70) 6 (2 Players) Hero bets $3.50, UTG raises to $7.00, Hero calls $3.50 River: ($18.70) 2 (2 Players) Hero checks, Villlain bets $5.00, Hero calls $5.00 Pot Size: $28.70 ($3 Rake) UTG had 8 8 (a full house, Eights full of Sixes) and WON (+$14.40) Hero had K A (two pairs, Kings and Sixes) and LOST (-$14.30) *Seinfeld is one of the worst and un-funny shows ever to defoul the television screens of the world

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses Not sure that's too interesting :unsure As I read it, for "D" I find what's written too artificial and too narrow :unsure I'm just not sure you can put your opponents on hand ranges (at this level) that well. I find myself nit-picking too - for example (am I missing something?) - in D5 - "If he has a set and I catch another K I get all the money." - doesn't he then have a Full House that beats your set of Kings?

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses One of the comments from the thread...

Try playing one/two tables for a few sessions and actively apply a logical thought process to every hand you see, whether you're in the pot or not. I swear far too many people jump into multitabling without having developed the ability to reason their decisions based on all available information. You can add on tables when you feel comfortable making quick, but sound judgements.

Tomorrow evening I'll give that a serious go - 1 table - no tv/surfing/email/PL etc for 30 minutes - I'll watch every hand - I'll try and really focus - I'll try and think it all through ...... and see how it goes ...... I'll post the bigger hands (win or lose) here....

[Nade]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses I think you're on the right track in approaching the psychological aspect of the game in how to think in the right way rather than your usual way where you base everything on maths. I've just finished watching a series on DC which i used to think was really dull whenever i tried to watch it but it's the content is the best one i've seen on 6max play. It's called The Coaching Tree by Baluga Whale and there's so much great content in it that you'll just have to watch for yourself. The very basic concepts you just have to think in cash games is: is my opponent betting for value or as a bluff. The hard part is working that out, and that only comes with experience. Play play and play some more. I have a vast amount of experience now with cash games i'd be more than happy to help the thread along it just needs some main aims at the moment.

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

I've just finished watching a series on DC which i used to think was really dull whenever i tried to watch it but it's the content is the best one i've seen on 6max play. It's called The Coaching Tree by Baluga Whale and there's so much great content in it that you'll just have to watch for yourself.

I'll give that a go :ok

[sugleh]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

I find myself nit-picking too - for example (am I missing something?) - in D5 - "If he has a set and I catch another K I get all the money." - doesn't he then have a Full House that beats your set of Kings?

He'll have a higher full house: K-K-K-6-6 ;)

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

Tomorrow evening I'll give that a serious go - 1 table - no tv/surfing/email/PL etc for 30 minutes - I'll watch every hand - I'll try and really focus - I'll try and think it all through ...... and see how it goes ...... I'll post the bigger hands (win or lose) here....

30 minutes of 1 table distraction free poker coming up now :hope

He'll have a higher full house: K-K-K-6-6 ;)

ahem :$

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

30 minutes of 1 table distraction free poker coming up now :hope

Well that went well :) However, In the same way that I shouldnt get too despondant by one losing session, I cant read anything into one winning session either. I didn't really feel in control. The session was mostly characterised by my play against just one of the players at the table - martingil. He was two seats after me and I had no previous data on him. My recollection (without checking - I will put the hands up - so we'll see how accurate my recollection is) Early on I lost 3 pots to him when he called my pre flop raises and then my cbets (and once my second barrel on the turn) on low boards before betting me out in later streets (or calling me down with marginal hands). I started to form the view that he was loose passive pre flop, calling bets with any two post flop, before betting out in later streets. I felt I needed to Value bet light against him and get my chips in the middle when I had a hand. So I then got TJ in position against him, I raised pre flop and when the flop came down ATx I bet for value. Turn was a blank and I continued to value bet (thinly) - river was a J (giving me 2 pair) also completing a 3 flush on the board - I put the rest of my chips in and he called with a worse hand - I dont know what he had, but given that he called the river bet I figure I must have rivered him - I'm thinking it was a lucky escape. I cant really remember any hands after that :unsure I think what I'm worried about from this series of hands is the cost of my cbetting - I think I lost too much early through the cbets - but if I dont cbet those flops, what do I cbet? Is cbetting becomming a bad idea at this level? BossMedia Game #1694671302: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:34:35 - 2009/07/20 Seat 1: EN62ER (€13.04) Seat 2: pl---GaF (€24.26) Seat 3: BRBuster (€38.07) Seat 4: martingil (€22.37) Seat 5: Melsted (€29.12) Melsted posts the big blind of €0.25 martingil posts the small blind of €0.12 BRBuster is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:Td: :Ad:] EN62ER folds pl---GaF raises €0.87 BRBuster folds martingil calls €0.87 Melsted calls €0.87 *** FLOP *** [:4s: :9h: :7h:] martingil checks Melsted checks pl---GaF bets €1.50 martingil calls €1.50 Melsted folds *** TURN *** [:4s: :9h: :7h:] [:6d:] martingil checks pl---GaF checks *** RIVER *** [:4s: :9h: :7h :6d:] [:Ks:] martingil bets €2.00 pl---GaF folds *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €5.36 | Rake €0.25 Board: [4s 9h 7h 6d Ks] EN62ER won (€0.00), mucks pl---GaF won (€0.00), mucks BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks martingil won (€5.36), mucks Melsted won (€0.00), mucks BossMedia Game #1694680373: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:40:13 - 2009/07/20 Seat 1: EN62ER (€17.44) Seat 2: pl---GaF (€21.52) Seat 3: BRBuster (€34.69) Seat 4: martingil (€33.30) EN62ER posts the small blind of €0.12 pl---GaF posts the big blind of €0.25 martingil is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:Qh: :Ad:] BRBuster folds martingil calls €0.25 EN62ER calls €0.25 pl---GaF raises €1.50 martingil calls €1.50 EN62ER folds *** FLOP *** [:8s: :4s: :2d:] pl---GaF bets €2.50 martingil calls €2.50 *** TURN *** [:8s: :4s: :2d:] [:8h:] pl---GaF bets €5.00 martingil calls €5.00 *** RIVER *** [:8s: :4s: :2d: :8h:] [:Kd:] pl---GaF checks martingil checks *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €17.35 | Rake €0.90 Board: [8s 4s 2d 8h Kd] EN62ER won (€0.00), mucks pl---GaF won (€0.00), showed [Qh Ad] BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks martingil won (€17.35), showed [:Ks: :Js:] This hand wasn't against Martingil - but I had characterised EN62ER as similar - loose, not quite so passive, and pretty reluctant to fold post flop (but not quite as bad as MartinGil) BossMedia Game #1694683877: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:42:23 - 2009/07/20 Seat 2: pl---GaF (€24.88) Seat 3: BRBuster (€33.94) Seat 1: EN62ER (€17.19) Seat 4: martingil (€41.65) Seat 5: avt2 (€25.82) BRBuster posts the small blind of €0.12 martingil posts the big blind of €0.25 pl---GaF is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:8c: :7c:] avt2 folds EN62ER calls €0.25 pl---GaF raises €1.12 BRBuster folds martingil folds EN62ER calls €1.12 *** FLOP *** [:4h: :6s: :3c:] EN62ER checks pl---GaF bets €1.75 EN62ER raises €3.50 pl---GaF folds *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €5.81 | Rake €0.30 Board: [4h 6s 3c] EN62ER won (€5.81), mucks pl---GaF won (€0.00), mucks BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks martingil won (€0.00), mucks avt2 won (€0.00), mucks So that's 3 cbets and 3 hands lost - I'm getting worried by this point..... BossMedia Game #1694686983: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:44:20 - 2009/07/20 Seat 1: EN62ER (€19.88) Seat 2: pl---GaF (€25.00) Seat 3: BRBuster (€35.26) Seat 4: martingil (€40.53) Seat 5: avt2 (€25.45) EN62ER posts the small blind of €0.12 pl---GaF posts the big blind of €0.25 avt2 is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:Jc: :Tc:] BRBuster folds martingil calls €0.25 avt2 folds EN62ER calls €0.25 pl---GaF raises €1.50 martingil calls €1.50 EN62ER folds *** FLOP *** [:2d: :Th: :Kd:] pl---GaF bets €2.50 martingil calls €2.50 *** TURN *** [:2d: :Th: :Kd:] [:5d:] pl---GaF bets €6.00 martingil calls €6.00 *** RIVER *** [:2d: :Th: :Kd: :5d:] [:Js:] pl---GaF goes all-in with €15.00 martingil calls €15.00 *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €47.75 | Rake €2.50 Board: [2d Th Kd 5d Js] martingil won (€0.00), mucks EN62ER won (€0.00), mucks pl---GaF won (€47.75), showed [Jc Tc] BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks avt2 won (€0.00), mucks

[Paul176]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses Its easy to underestimate variance GaF. Plus when things are going bad tilt kicks in. A lot of people like to say tilt doesn't affect them yadayadayada. Tilt is more than just spewing chips on stupid plays. The little things get to everyone. If you cbets are getting called/raised left right and centre its easy to throw in a second barrel when you know you shouldn't. I've had a bit of a rocky ride at 50NL so far. I'm sure in part due to the slightly better competition but I've not exactly had the best of luck. My graph looks like someone on a pogo stick.

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

A lot of people like to say tilt doesn't affect them yadayadayada.

I genuinely dont believe I tilt through "suffering variance" - If I'm in a cash game and get it all in pre flop with AA v 22 - then I really dont give a hoot about the result of that particular hand - whichever way the money ships on this ocasion, I know that I won. What does tilt me is the feeling that I'm playing badly. If I end up in a cash game sticking it all in pre flop with 22 (for some inconceivable reason :unsure) against AA and I river a 2 to turn him over - I wont be happy! Following the same logic as the first example - regardless of which way the money ships on this specific hand, I know I lost on the hand! At the moment, my perception (rightly or wrongly) is that I'm not outplaying my opponents. That could be tilting me and affecting my game. Outplaying them means understanding their tendancies and countering them in a profitable way - even where I feel I know my opponents tendancies, I'm not convinced I'm countering those tendancies in a profitable way - that doesnt necesarily mean that I think they're consciously outplaying me, just that I'm not countering their style effectively.

[glceud]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

At the moment, my perception (rightly or wrongly) is that I'm not outplaying my opponents. That could be tilting me and affecting my game. Outplaying them means understanding their tendancies and countering them in a profitable way - even where I feel I know my opponents tendancies, I'm not convinced I'm countering those tendancies in a profitable way - that doesnt necesarily mean that I think they're consciously outplaying me, just that I'm not countering their style effectively.

Best paragraph you've ever written mate:clap Once you fully understand the concept you'll never use the "variance" myth again;)

[Nade]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

At the moment, my perception (rightly or wrongly) is that I'm not outplaying my opponents. That could be tilting me and affecting my game. Outplaying them means understanding their tendancies and countering them in a profitable way - even where I feel I know my opponents tendancies, I'm not convinced I'm countering those tendancies in a profitable way - that doesnt necesarily mean that I think they're consciously outplaying me, just that I'm not countering their style effectively.

There's a whole raft of things you can do to make money before thinking about how to outplay people by taking advantage of their tendancies. That's probably the hardest thing to master. Re. cbetting: It's probably the easiest way to make money in poker. Position is crucial and it's amazing the amount of times you can successfully take down pots on the flop or turn. I'd say cbetting 80% is fine on the flop, nobody is going to adjust and start playing back at you. One thing to note is if you don't like firing turn cards and opt to give up cbetting about 60% on the flop will lead to you being able to cbet nearly as much on the turn too so you won't be 'exploitable' by people looking to float you. But that's a very minor point up to 200nl i've found. Seriously just concentrate on playing positional, aggressive, value poker.

[Paul176]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

At the moment' date=' my perception (rightly or wrongly) is that I'm not outplaying my opponents. That could be tilting me and affecting my game. [/quote'] This is more what I meant GaF. Getting past suckouts comes fairly quickly - after its happened enough you just accept them. Getting past doubts in the quality of your play is much harder. I would guess that with enough hands it gets easier as you know you are making the correct plays with more certainty. I'm not sure tilt is the right word but things like this can definately affect my play.

[jedinight7]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

Hi Gaf, 7,8  and 10,J hands depending on the players and table dymanics, id probably fold both pre, unless i know im raisiing into guys who are playing tight, if called and dont hit flop super hard id be done with the hands, just watch for weak players and try and find spots to get inpots with them :) i find if you increase your starting hand requirements in cash games it can keep you out of alot of trouble also

[Nade]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses Hows your cash quest going then Gaf?

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses It's not :tongue2

[GaF]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses Hmmm .... I was "beat" by my quest because I felt I couldnt do anything right - I felt I couldnt compete with my opponents. I have been "fighting" the NL25€ tables on Boss - and I just seem to lose every session, AND feel that I'm not doing the right things. I can deal with variance. I cant deal with the feeling that I'm playing badly and that I cant win. I genuinely felt that I couldn't win. However, I have just been looking at my entire database (at least all the hands I have on my Hard drive - going back to July 2007) and that tells a different story. I'm now seriously wondering if I have been too sensitive. Am I even, maybe ... possibly, overreacting to a little variance? :loon

[Nade]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses The only person beating you is yourself.

[Solat]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

level? BossMedia Game #1694671302: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:34:35 - 2009/07/20 Seat 1: EN62ER (€13.04) Seat 2: pl---GaF (€24.26) Seat 3: BRBuster (€38.07) Seat 4: martingil (€22.37) Seat 5: Melsted (€29.12) Melsted posts the big blind of €0.25 martingil posts the small blind of €0.12 BRBuster is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:Td: :Ad:] EN62ER folds pl---GaF raises €0.87 BRBuster folds martingil calls €0.87 Melsted calls €0.87 *** FLOP *** [:4s: :9h: :7h:] martingil checks Melsted checks pl---GaF bets €1.50 martingil calls €1.50 Melsted folds *** TURN *** [:4s: :9h: :7h:] [:6d:] martingil checks pl---GaF checks *** RIVER *** [:4s: :9h: :7h :6d:] [:Ks:] martingil bets €2.00 pl---GaF folds *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €5.36 | Rake €0.25 Board: [4s 9h 7h 6d Ks] EN62ER won (€0.00), mucks pl---GaF won (€0.00), mucks BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks martingil won (€5.36), mucks Melsted won (€0.00), mucks I wouldn't cbet that flop against two villains, especially if they're loose. Even if they haven't hit they're likely to peel the flop with overs or weird draws and you're going to have a tough time figuring out what to do when you inevitably have to slow down on the turn and river unimproved. BossMedia Game #1694680373: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:40:13 - 2009/07/20 Seat 1: EN62ER (€17.44) Seat 2: pl---GaF (€21.52) Seat 3: BRBuster (€34.69) Seat 4: martingil (€33.30) EN62ER posts the small blind of €0.12 pl---GaF posts the big blind of €0.25 martingil is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:Qh: :Ad:] BRBuster folds martingil calls €0.25 EN62ER calls €0.25 pl---GaF raises €1.50 martingil calls €1.50 EN62ER folds *** FLOP *** [:8s: :4s: :2d:] pl---GaF bets €2.50 martingil calls €2.50 *** TURN *** [:8s: :4s: :2d:] [:8h:] pl---GaF bets €5.00 martingil calls €5.00 *** RIVER *** [:8s: :4s: :2d: :8h:] [:Kd:] pl---GaF checks martingil checks *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €17.35 | Rake €0.90 Board: [8s 4s 2d 8h Kd] EN62ER won (€0.00), mucks pl---GaF won (€0.00), showed [Qh Ad] BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks martingil won (€17.35), showed [:Ks: :Js:] The 8 on the turn is not a good card to barrel as an 8 is not really in your range, flushdraws will still call and hands like 66 will be even less likely to fold. And frankly villain doesn't seem like a good candidate to barrel either. This hand wasn't against Martingil - but I had characterised EN62ER as similar - loose, not quite so passive, and pretty reluctant to fold post flop (but not quite as bad as MartinGil) BossMedia Game #1694683877: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:42:23 - 2009/07/20 Seat 2: pl---GaF (€24.88) Seat 3: BRBuster (€33.94) Seat 1: EN62ER (€17.19) Seat 4: martingil (€41.65) Seat 5: avt2 (€25.82) BRBuster posts the small blind of €0.12 martingil posts the big blind of €0.25 pl---GaF is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:8c: :7c:] avt2 folds EN62ER calls €0.25 pl---GaF raises €1.12 BRBuster folds martingil folds EN62ER calls €1.12 *** FLOP *** [:4h: :6s: :3c:] EN62ER checks pl---GaF bets €1.75 EN62ER raises €3.50 pl---GaF folds *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €5.81 | Rake €0.30 Board: [4h 6s 3c] EN62ER won (€5.81), mucks pl---GaF won (€0.00), mucks BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks martingil won (€0.00), mucks avt2 won (€0.00), mucks I might've peeled a card to his minraise if he was full stacked, but since he's not, folding is good. Also, it would prob be fine to check behind on the flop especially if he's not into folding much. So that's 3 cbets and 3 hands lost - I'm getting worried by this point..... BossMedia Game #1694686983: Table Table TH 5705 - €0.12/€0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:44:20 - 2009/07/20 Seat 1: EN62ER (€19.88) Seat 2: pl---GaF (€25.00) Seat 3: BRBuster (€35.26) Seat 4: martingil (€40.53) Seat 5: avt2 (€25.45) EN62ER posts the small blind of €0.12 pl---GaF posts the big blind of €0.25 avt2 is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl---GaF [:Jc: :Tc:] BRBuster folds martingil calls €0.25 avt2 folds EN62ER calls €0.25 pl---GaF raises €1.50 martingil calls €1.50 EN62ER folds *** FLOP *** [:2d: :Th: :Kd:] pl---GaF bets €2.50 martingil calls €2.50 *** TURN *** [:2d: :Th: :Kd:] [:5d:] pl---GaF bets €6.00 martingil calls €6.00 *** RIVER *** [:2d: :Th: :Kd: :5d:] [:Js:] pl---GaF goes all-in with €15.00 martingil calls €15.00 *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €47.75 | Rake €2.50 Board: [2d Th Kd 5d Js] martingil won (€0.00), mucks EN62ER won (€0.00), mucks pl---GaF won (€47.75), showed [Jc Tc] BRBuster won (€0.00), mucks avt2 won (€0.00), mucks

I would check pf here; they don't like to fold and you're oop. I wouldn't bet turn. He'll never fold a king and prob not AT-type hands either and the flush got there also. River shove is somewhat thin imo but I guess it's fine against this type of villain; wouldn't be too surprised if he called with as little as QJ there.

[Nade]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

[Solat]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

2nd hand just confuses me though. You have air you're trying to get value from all worse hands and fold better hands i.e. small pairs so 10/10 times you have to barrel the river here, it's the perfect river card.

I don't think you're getting this type of player to fold a pair if you bet the king on the river. Don't try to rep hands to ppl that don't read hands. Save those plays for ppl that are weak tight and will be scared of any overcard. A fish will call since "I-have-a-pair; call and a good player will call with like 77 since you're only repping good KsXs and AA/KK with the raise out of the blinds and betting all streets including K-river. A small bet to fold out his A-high flush draws might be good but I don't know whether they're a big enough part of his range.

[Nade]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses I think the quality and mindset of the opponent is illustrated by the fact even when they did hit they STILL checked meaning he is weak passive and didn't have a clue what to do, i'd be barreling this guy all day long. 'Scare cards' in these situations are called that because of the fish in the hand. A reg knows a lot of the time a 'scare card' will try and be repped so will call at least 1 more st regardless, a fish will see a scare card and insta fold, i see it every single day.

[Solat]

Re: LetsStudy-01-ThoughtProcesses

I think the quality and mindset of the opponent is illustrated by the fact even when they did hit they STILL checked meaning he is weak passive and didn't have a clue what to do, i'd be barreling this guy all day long. 'Scare cards' in these situations are called that because of the fish in the hand. A reg knows a lot of the time a 'scare card' will try and be repped so will call at least 1 more st regardless, a fish will see a scare card and insta fold, i see it every single day.

I respectfully disagree, at least when 'fish' equals calling station as the case was here. Weak/loose passive, yes. But the fact that he didn't valuebet doesn't really prove anything except that he's not reading hands. I guess what it really boils down is whether this guy will shrug his shoulders and call bacause 'lol, I has a pair' or if he'll go 'oh no scary king, I'd better fold'. In my experience the micro stakes are filled with the former.