GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I've today created this thread - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/f62/player-profiles-betfair-18k-gtd-flukesky-86152/ It is intended to be the first of many. Posts 17-21 express concerns from other PLrs about the thread. I confess I did wrestle with the moral implications a little before doing it, however, from the fact I put the thread up, you can see the conclusions I came to. I'd like to understand a bit more about what the specific objections are, to see if there's a way we can keep doing it whilst keeping everyone happy we're not stepping over the line. Would it be better if we did the same thing but disguised aliases (with only those involved knowing who the players really were? Would it be ok if we kept the discussions going, but in private, rather than in public? Or is the very fact of collectively working over old data the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? Gaf people discuss hand histories via email and MSN all the time. Highlighting specific players in this forum is only a bad thing I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippe6 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? i think your doing a big brother type thing on the guy,the information you collect on players id of thought was for your eyes.for players to compare tracker info is turning it into a type of team event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? First I've seen of this and my first and second reactions are that it's not ethically correct. By all means you can collate this information for your own use, but I don't think that it should be posted on a forum, which can also be seen by the general public. I think I would also be uncomfortable, even if the aliases were known only to members. Just my opinion, and I'm not knocking you for sharing what you've found, but it could be the thin end of the wedge, and not the right sort of image for the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? My opinion on this is simple...... Everyone is using the trackers these days, and wether the info is used on open forums or via msn or even kept private, players are using any tactics they can to gain an edge, so why shouldn't we as mates not do the same? If you dont want to join in or dont want to be part of it, then dont look in the threads. Thats not a swipe at anyone against it by the way, but why shouldn't we be looking to help each other out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? FWIW By all means PM each other but I don't think it should be public info on the forum where non-members can see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? My opinion on this is simple...... Everyone is using the trackers these days, and wether the info is used on open forums or via msn or even kept private, players are using any tactics they can to gain an edge, so why shouldn't we as mates not do the same? If you dont want to join in or dont want to be part of it, then dont look in the threads. Thats not a swipe at anyone against it by the way, but why shouldn't we be looking to help each other out? I can see that there are boundaries that should not, and cannot be crossed by "team work", so I wouldnt agree that it's "gain an edge at any cost" .... however ...... I think my view is that what I am trying to do here is different because it's all looking at historical data - nothing is "live". Also, we're not gaining maximum edge by putting it in the public forum - if we wanted to do that we'd do the same, but in private. I can see that there's a general concensus that people are against it, and if that is the position, then I will stop doing it on the forum (and probably look to continue doing it off of the forum) - unless someone can persuade me that it's wrong to do at all. (so I'm interested in peoples views - positive/negative or on the fence) Do any of those opposed want to try and address the questions I put in post 1? To help me understand where the boundary should be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? FWIW By all means PM each other but I don't think it should be public info on the forum where non-members can see it. What if PL set up a private forum for us that people could only see once they had say 100 posts? (I'm loving this "rebelious teenager" role - trying to find the boundaries - I'm feeling younger doing it :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? I'm not knocking you I'm not taking any opinions expressed here personally (unless they are personal :tongue2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? but why shouldn't we be looking to help each other out? It's probably Trev's unselfish nature and my selfish one but why should you post stuff that is going to help your oppo's out. If I'm in the $18K I want to roll over everyone (including mates) and GaF is helping me to do that (and every lurker). Unethical - probably not Stupid - Probably :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warbirds Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? A system of disguised aliases could work - I mean would we be so happy to see this kind of thread about us somewhere on the net??? Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolly67 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? All you're doing here is collating information that's already in the public domain.I don't see a problem, unless you do me:@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wurzel133 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? All you're doing here is collating information that's already in the public domain.I don't see a problem' date=' unless you do me:@[/quote'] exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippe6 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? the guys not cheating as far as we know how would you like say 10 maybe 20 players putting tracker details up on another forum about you and and pulling you into bits it doesnt seem right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? PS I also agree with TQM's comments about how the player himself/herself is going to feel and what impression he will get from this forum. Google Flukesky this thread is already #1 :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? It's probably Trev's unselfish nature and my selfish one but why should you post stuff that is going to help your oppo's out. If I'm in the $18K I want to roll over everyone (including mates) and GaF is helping me to do that (and every lurker). Unethical - probably not Stupid - Probably :tongue2 I'm hoping it gives me the motivation to do what I feel I should be doing. (I dont have the opinions on players in the 18k yet that maybe I should have). I want to get the diversity of opinions that I cant get by myself. So my goals arent solely philanthropical. The conclusion I'm coming towards though (based on all opinions so far) is that I should remove this from Public PL but carry on doing it elsewhere (google group or private PL forum) with a group of however many wish to be involved. The "crime" doesnt seem to be so much what I'm doing, but the act of putting it on the forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? Would it be better if we did the same thing but disguised aliases (with only those involved knowing who the players really were? Would it be ok if we kept the discussions going, but in private, rather than in public? Or is the very fact of collectively working over old data the issue? Certainly cant see anything wrong with points one and two. My problem is that it is only(so far) the info on one individual which must put him at a major disadvantage. Once you have info on every player online give me a shout(you could call it GaFscope). Over-riding all this off course is the fact that you shouldnt be using tracking software in the first place as poker should be played by a group of people using a pack of cards and some money whilst eating pizza and drinking beer. :spank The only advantage you should have are the power of your brain, the size of your balls and your ability to function after a Glenfiddich or two. Or in Morls case a pizza or two:loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? A system of disguised aliases could work - I mean would we be so happy to see this kind of thread about us somewhere on the net??? the guys not cheating as far as we know how would you like say 10 maybe 20 players putting tracker details up on another forum about you and and pulling you into bits it doesnt seem right I'd love to find a thread all about me - telling me my leaks, my weaknesses and what other players think of me - I'm sure I could benefit hugely from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? I'm hoping it gives me the motivation to do what I feel I should be doing. (I dont have the opinions on players in the 18k yet that maybe I should have). I want to get the diversity of opinions that I cant get by myself. So my goals arent solely philanthropical. The conclusion I'm coming towards though (based on all opinions so far) is that I should remove this from Public PL but carry on doing it elsewhere (google group or private PL forum) with a group of however many wish to be involved. The "crime" doesnt seem to be so much what I'm doing, but the act of putting it on the forum? I know your giving nature GaF but do you seriously think that being a philanthropist mixes well with the selfish world of poker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? the guys not cheating as far as we know how would you like say 10 maybe 20 players putting tracker details up on another forum about you and and pulling you into bits it doesnt seem right GaF's put just about every piece of info he has on his own play on here in an attempt to get pulled to bits.:tongue2 Hmmmm...........might explain his apparent lack of tourney success these days:unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? I know your giving nature GaF but do you seriously think that being a philanthropist mixes well with the selfish world of poker? I believe in the economies of scale of sharing on a forum. If we work together (without colluding) then I believe we will all end up better players (measured against the average poker player) than if we all work alone. Maybe my problem is that I dont use MSN (hate the bugger!!) so all my chat is on the forum, whilst the rest of you are secretly sharing in private? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? Ok - I've asked the mods to move the original thread out of the public forum :ok Anyone who wants to be a part of further discussion in some form out of the public forum, drop me a PM and we'll work something out :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? I believe in the economies of scale of sharing on a forum. If we work together (without colluding) then I believe we will all end up better players (measured against the average poker player) than if we all work alone. Maybe my problem is that I dont use MSN (hate the bugger!!) so all my chat is on the forum, whilst the rest of you are secretly sharing in private? I think there is a big difference between discussing strat with mates and openly disecting a specific player on a forum. In a recent live tourney I was on a break for the final table and a couple of mates sat me down and gave me some valuable info on a couple of players, which I appreciate and I would do the same for them. I don't see that as unethical as its only what The Hit Squad, Hendon Mob, Glenfiddich Gang etc have been doing for years and sharing info is so valuable to improve your play. Last year in the Betfair Dreamteam as you know we had a private forum and we played against a lot of the players which are now regulars in the $18K but I don't think we really disected players in there. I have a host of info on those players but I will only share it when I feel it will benefit another Pler and I am out :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Duke Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? Very dodgy this only my own personal opinion :tongue2 Right as i see it i never use tracking shite maybe i should :unsure on an open forum thats a no no for me :eyes ps maybe im behind the times with tracking devices but why rely on them whats wrong with old fashioned head reads :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugleh Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? I think the analysis is a very good idea - however I am a bit uncomfortable posting it on a public forum. Having a restricted forum or a password protected forum only for this is the way to go IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Puntalot Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? I had a similar discussion with The Mole last year in Vegas. My opinion is, is that if after you have displayed hand histories for all to see, and you are worried that it gives far too much of your game away, then your game is far too weak anyway. I may not be a great poker player, but I do understand the mechanics very well. Whilst what the The Mole says isn't the bible, he did agree, that in this scenario your game is weak as hell. If you fall into this category, it's my opinion, you will only progress to a certain level and then never go beyond it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? I had a similar discussion with The Mole last year in Vegas. My opinion is, is that if after you have displayed hand histories for all to see, and you are worried that it gives far too much of your game away, then your game is far too weak anyway. I may not be a great poker player, but I do understand the mechanics very well. Whilst what the The Mole says isn't the bible, he did agree, that in this scenario your game is weak as hell. If you fall into this category, it's my opinion, you will only progress to a certain level and then never go beyond it. Not the same situations unfortunately Paul, we are not talking about posting HH's and this player is not doing this voluntary. I have not really got a problem with what GaF was doing btw I just didn't see the point in it. Sharing poker strategy is a vital part of learning and improving (I did start a thread on this once :tongue2) but sharing personal data is always really kept to yourself and by sharing it openly you are helping out your oppo's probably more than yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? Kind of seems like an us and them scenario could be created but it's only a small minority of people that could see it like that anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? Google Flukesky this thread is already #1 :( Guess whose table I've just been moved to ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazabroad Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Re: Debate: Is it ethical to disect specific players openly on the forum? Kind of seems like an us and them scenario could be created but it's only a small minority of people that could see it like that anyway. I thought that was the point of this thread tbh :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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